Salvation!

[Winchester]

The last time someone posted on this thread, I was not yet 30. I was assigned to Ambulance 25 holding the rank of Chauffer and my daughter wasn't yet 1 year old.

[mortify]

[size=4][color="#0000FF"]"You see that a person is justified by works and [u]not by faith alone[/u]."[/color][/size]
James 2:24


Can't get clearer than that!

[dairygirl4u2c]

i consider myself pretty well versed, no pun intended, in both verses and arguments. instead of asking you to do a search on this, given that i should make a database of stuff, as i often do from time to time.


first, i know you wanted actual arguments, but first, this is a goldmine.


[quote]QUOTE
Passages used to support sola fide

* Psalms 84:12: "O LORD Almighty, blessed is the man who trusts in you."
* Isaiah 64:6: "For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. And all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away."
* 2 Chronicles 20:20: "Have faith in the LORD your God and you will be upheld..."
* Matthew 7:22-23: "Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'"
* Luke 5:20:"When Jesus saw their faith, he said, "Friend, your sins are forgiven." "
* Luke 18:10-14:"Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: 'God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.' "But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, 'God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God."
* Luke 23:40-43: "But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong." Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom. Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." "
* John 3:16: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life."
* John 3:18: "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."
* John 6:28-29: "Therefore they said to Him, 'What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?' Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"
* John 5:24: "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."
* John 6:40: "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."
* John 6:47: "I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life."
* Acts 10:43: "Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins."
* Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved."
* John 14:6: "Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.'"
* Acts 26:18: "...that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me..."
* Romans 1:17-18: "Therefore the just shall live by faith. The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness."
* Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
* Romans 4:5: "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness."
* Romans 5:1: "...having been justified by faith..."
* Romans 10:9: "That if you shall confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shall believe in your heart that God has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved."
* Romans 11:6: "But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace."
* Romans 14:23: "...and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
* Ephesians 2:8-10: "For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves. It is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them."
* Philippians 3:9: "and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
* Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
* Galatians 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."
* Galatians 3:1-3; 9-14; 21-25: "O foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you; did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the flesh? ... So then they who are of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham. Because as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: because it is written, 'Cursed is every one that does not continue in all things that are written in the book of the law to be done'. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, 'The just shall live by faith'. And the law is not of faith: but, 'The man that does them shall live in them'. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangs on a tree. So that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; so that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.... Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, certainly righteousness should have been by the law. But the Scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up from the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Therefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, so that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
* Galatians 3:8: "The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith..."
* Galatians 5:4,5: "Christ has become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith."
* Titus 3:5: "...he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit..."[/quote]



[quote]QUOTE
[edit] Passages used to oppose sola fide


* Matthew 5:48 (part of the Expounding of the Law within the Sermon on the Mount): "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." (compare Imitatio dei)
* Matthew 7:21 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven."
* Matthew 7:24-27 (part of the Sermon on the Mount): "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash."
* Matthew 12:36-37: "I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."
* Matthew 16:27: "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father's glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what he has done."
* Matthew 19:17: ""Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.""
* Matthew 24:10-20 (part of the Olivet discourse): "Then many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate (don't hate, appreciate) one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because of the increase of lawlessness, the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
* Matthew 25:31-46 (part of The Sheep and the Goats): "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
* Matthew 28:19-20a (part of the Great Commission): "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you."
* Luke 8:21: " But He answered and said to them, "My mother and My brothers are these who hear the word of God and do it."
* Luke 10:25-28: "On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?" "What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?" He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'" "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live.""
* John 5:29: "And will come out--those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."
* Romans 2:6,7; 13: "For he will repay according to each one's deeds. To those who by patiently doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; for it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified."
* Romans 2:16: "on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all."
* Galatians 6:7b-9: "A man reaps what he sows. The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up."
* 1 Corinthians 10:12: "Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
* 1 Corinthians 13:2-3: "And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give away all my possessions, and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing."
* 1 Corinthians 13:13: "And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love."
* 2 Corinthians 5:10: "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, so that each one may receive recompense, according to what he did in the body, whether good or evil."
* James 1:22: "Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."
* James 2 (excerpts): "... What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? ... Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ... Ye see then how that by works a man is justified,
* James 2:24: "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone."
* Phillipians 2:12-13: "... work out your salvation with fear and trembling. For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
* 1 Peter 1:17: "Now if you invoke as Father him who judges impartially according to each one's works, conduct yourselves with reverence during the time of your sojourning."
* 1 John 2:3-7: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard."
* Revelation 14:12-13: "Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying, ‘Write this: Blessed are the dead who from now on die in the Lord.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labours, for their deeds follow them.’
* Revelation 20:13: "All the dead were judged according to their deeds."
* Revelation 22:12: "Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds."[/quote]

[dairygirl4u2c]

a good starting point, is to talk in terms of the theological terms behind the verses. justification, and sanctification mostly.
i'd start that conversation by asking them to consider what martin luther thought... "faith alone... but faith is never alone".
i think it's best not to give too much credence to protestant arguemnts that are flimsy to make your own look better, but give credence to those with the most weight. don't give credence to those who think once saved always saved, no matter what you do etc. consider mostly those who say "if you're saved, you will have good works".
the theological point is, that they think the works don't save, sanctification even though justification already has occurred. catholics on the other hand.... say we are justified at one point,,, but that we also grow in justification.... it's a process and tied together with sanctification. this can befound at catholic encyclopedia, that it's a process.

tie these thoughts back to the verses. obviously, the theological theory can work either way in the abstract, depending how your bend. the verses, at least theoretically, should influence what you think the theology should be.

Edited July 17, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

another good starting point.... maybe after you introduce the theological terms. i'd point out by comparing this pretty profound comparison of the two groups of thought by comparing these verses. so there's james and romans. they talk both ironically about abraham's justification in different rhetorical terms.

[quote]james 2 says "21 Abraham was justified by works when he offered Isaac 22 - faith was working with his works.
23 - Scripture says, "And Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness" 24 - you see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone."

"Indeed, if Abraham was justified on the basis of his works, he has reason to boast; but this was not so in the sight of God. For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." (Rom. 4:3),[/quote]

-ironically, and to the catholic's defense. prots believe "faith alone" yet the only place in the bible where the words "faith alone" exists, is where it says "not saved by faith alone"

-it's always important to note though. when talking about the james verse. that those who follow "saved by faith but faith is never alone".... would say that james is merely saying that faith is what saves, and that faith is always accompanied by works.... "not by faith alone"


2 something i realized back with jesusismysuperhero was here. I always just thought that the catholic and the protestant in these verses has merit to it. but, now i think that the protestant theroy of justification at a single poit cannot have merit.... remember, they often say it's at a single point. i don't think there's merit is because, it seems like what's being credited to abraham even in the romans verse, is his fiath in that situation. not his faith at some point in the past.
so, at the least, a one time thing can't have merit, according to even the protestant friendly roman's verse.

what about faith right now, but not on works? that's more debatable.

Edited July 17, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

after all these, you have to look to the rest of the bible, to figure out which position has most merit.
biblically, the main bottom lines that i see.....

from the protestant perspective, that romans verse already mentioned and the either galatians or ephisians verse that says "it is by grace that you are saved, not of works, lest any man should boast". also, there are many verses that talk about how you are right now justified as if you already are.

from the cathlic perspective, there's the james verse, and the fact that just reading the gosples themselves stresses works, not "believe in me", what jesus said. not to necessarily pit Paul with Jesus, but paul is the one who protestants lean on not jesus. i'm just pointing out the stresses involved. obviously, most people would like to assume the bible isn't contradicting itself.

so you have ot ask how to reconcile.
-the grace works prot verse mentioned.... could be about works apart from any grace as catholics would argue. this of course has the con, that it doesn't meet the plain meaning of the text. not that it's false, but you can't deny the plain meaning.
-the abraham verses are debatable. maybe the ultimate protestant argument is that you do grow in justification, but only inso far as you grow in faith not works.
-catholics have what jesus stresses as a point,,, but i've always had a hard time reconciling the fact that paul talks about being justified right now etc. i know people always say, "was saved, being saved, will be saved" but those verses and the justified verses are not the same, nad it's at least debatable what those "saved" verses mean. i'd actually like more insight on the "justified" verses.

[dairygirl4u2c]

from my perspective, i think humans tend to make arguments, constructions from their tradition that don't necessarily reflect reality. perhaps a good way to approach it... besides the theological and biblical... not to exclude them... is to simply ask yourself what would you do if you were God? we are made in the image of God etc so.

you have the ideas that...
wouldn't God save those based on faith, given that he's love and that it's a minial requirement?
but, isn't it better to say that the dung isn't getting simply covered but that it's actually justified,,,, and taht we are participating in the justification?

prots have a good point. if jesus' atonement is infinite... why do we need do do anything to help? the best argument against this... is that he desires us to participate in our own salvation. this way... it's personal, plus, we can have the system of no snow covering dung.

i'm more of a works believer. i buy into the thoughts, that it's not so much God that condemns us, but we condemn ouself. this means differnt things to different people,but to me, it means... not living in good works is inherently bad. you're inherently condemned by the very life you live. like anyone, i can use verses and theoogy to back up my perhaps arguable preconceived notion, but that's what i think. this makes the catholic teaching that we are redeemed make sense. how can we be redeemed, yet not certainly saved?well, as a matter of what God chooses, we are good in his sight, kinda like what protestants believe but less on the faith requirement stuff at this point.... but he allows us through free will to determine our destination, heaven or hell, by our works, our side of the bargain. the protestant argument that it's just an end run around technicality that we aren't realy redeemed, has merit to it then,,,, but if you think that this is the reality of hte istuation what i described,,, then that's just the way it is.

prots are pretty close to this. they say "we're saved, and our works merely change our rewards." so even the degree of regard thing cathos and prots beleive in. the only difference again... is that they say the works don't add to the jsutification.

also, mroe in the vein of the similarities. if you take the best protestant arguments, at least as i see them.... the only real disfference isthat they say works are required and is a process, but they simply don't justified. what happens to the person in actuality maybe we don't know.... but at least we all agree that works are required.

Edited July 17, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

i think a few ideas are good to have in mind when takling about these things.

namely, how it's easy to get works/faith stuff mixed up with once saved always saved etc. but they are distinct concepts. you can beleivein faith only but not OSAS.

also,,, how atonment works, that theology is implicated but distinct from the works arguments. as mentioned, prots say if atonement is infinite, why do we have to participate?
if you don't assume that legal atonement.... then it's not as easy to justify the prot position. not that you have to destroy the atonement stuff to justify the catho argument.
for me,,, i buy more into the orthodox atonment stuff,, and that helps justify the catho and my arguents better, in my opinion. but this is another thread really.

also,,, things like purgatory verses etc, would tend support the works argument. these are distinct concepts too but. you have:


[quote]1 corinthians 3
12 If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw,
13 the work of each will come to light, for the Day 7 will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire (itself) will test the quality of each one's work.
14 If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage.
15 But if someone's work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person will be saved, 8 but only as through fire.

Luke 12:41-48 [41] Peter asked, "Lord, are you telling this parable to us, or to everyone?" [42] The Lord answered, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? [43] It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. [44] I tell you the truth, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. [45] But suppose the servant says to himself, `My master is taking a long time in coming,' and he then begins to beat the menservants and maidservants and to eat and drink and get drunk. [46] The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers. [47] "That servant who knows his master's will and does not get ready or does not do what his master wants will be beaten with many blows. [48] But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.[/quote]

how do you get blows in heaven, as per the second verse?
how do you suffer a loss and get purified by fire in heaven as per the first verse?
the catholic purgatory argument, makes the most sense.

Edited July 17, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

so i guess i'm mostly catholic on these issues.

but as i was hinting at. how can paul etc be talking about how we are already justified... and we takl about how we grow in justification? how can one grow in justification, as teh CC teaches, when one is already justified, as the CC teaches?

i think you could draw analogies to how cups are filled etc, to talk about how grace works.

i think both sides could create analogies, and that's where the debate would probably end up.

if that's where the debate would end up.... then it does go back to how your preconceived notion, like mine being we are condemned or not by the very life we live.

so the question is i think up for grabs. i don't know any way around it.
i'd prefer personally... to talk about "what would God do" more, instead of trying to pretend the bible is clear on the matter.

but,,,, i do have to concede that teh "justified" verses are hard to reconcile with a works person.

[dairygirl4u2c]

actually i'm not sure i have as many reservations about the "justified" verses tht prots use. looing at that database of verses in the first post,,, shows even paul takling about getting justified in the future. so, the arguments can go whatever way. in fact, if it says "justified" in one place, and "will be justified" in another, on balance, you'd have to say they are both possible, and that catholic teaching of "justified" and "process of justificatio" makes sense here.

[dairygirl4u2c]

i just felt compelled to add this. a Q and A from a prot dissing the catholic church.
i thought he did a decent job comparing them.
i don't think he's objective, given that the Romans verse he cites could be taken with the James verse, and the bible as a whole but.

how is the process of justification done within the CC? it is a process, as the catholic encyclopedia etc demonstrate.
i thought it important, to distinguish between maintaining our justification, and participating in the justification. catholics believe in maintaining, for sure. but, i think they also participate, through the inherent nature of them, as indicated arguably by the trnet verses, and even his understanding.
maintain and participate v. merely maintain, would be an interesting debate.
i'm pretty sure it's maintain and participate, reading trent etc

[quote]Question: [quote]You mentioned something about how the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is through works. This is contrary to everything that I’ve discovered about the Catholic Church.[/quote]

Answer: Many Catholics will not agree with you. They frankly admit that they hope to be saved by living a good life. They seek to obey the commandments, participate in the sacraments, go to church, do penance and give alms, recite prayers and so on, in order to merit salvation. In its official writings, the Catholic Church teaches that faith is important; but it also insists on the necessity of good works to merit eternal life. Please read carefully the following quotations from the Council of Trent on Justification:

Canon 11. If anyone says that men are justified either by the sole imputation of the justice of Christ or by the sole remission of sins, excluding [b]grace and charity which is poured into their hearts by the Holy Spirit and inheres in them[/b], or also that the grace which justifies us is only the favour of God, let him be anathema. (see note 1)

Canon 12. If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than confidence in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this confidence alone that justifies us, let him be anathema.

Canon 24. If anyone says that the justice (righteousness) received is not preserved and also not increased before God through good works but that those works are merely the fruits and signs of justification obtained, but not the cause of the increase, let him be anathema.

Canon 30. If anyone says that after the reception of the grace of justification the guilt is so remitted and the debt of eternal punishment so blotted out to every repentant sinner, that no debt of temporal punishment remains to be discharged either in this world or in purgatory before the gates of heaven can be opened, let him be anathema.

Canon 32. If anyone says that the good works of the one justified are in such manner the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him justified; or that the one justified by the good works that he performs by the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (of whom one is a living member), the justified does not [b]truly merit an increase of grace, and eternal life[/b], provided that one dies in the state of grace, the attainment of this eternal life, as well as an increase in glory, let him be anathema.

Official Catholic teaching would not allow the sinner to rely by faith on the mercy of God or to believe that his sins are forgiven for Christ’s sake only. Something more is required. [b]You must keep yourself justified by your own good works. You must merit grace and eternal life by your works. [/b]You must pay the debt of sins by your penance and your purgatorial sufferings. That is Rome's salvation by works!

What about Canon 1?

Question But you forgot to mention canon 1, which clearly asserts that we are not justified by our works. "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or through the teaching of the law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema."

Answer This canon gives an initial impression that Rome denies justification by works just as the Bible (and evangelicals) also do. In fact it does not! The canon simply says that a man cannot be justified by performing the works of the Law by his own natural powers. However, the same canon indicates that [b]a man can 'receive divine grace through Jesus Christ' to perform the works necessary for justification.[/b] In other words, Rome teaches that God helps man to do good works and hence to fully satisfy the Law. Only then is a person qualified to enter heaven. The Council of Trent elaborates this idea in chapter 16:

"For, whereas Jesus Christ Himself continually [b]infuses his virtue into the said justified, - as the head into the members, and the vine into the branches, - and this virtue always precedes and accompanies and follows their good works[/b], which without it could not in any wise be pleasing and meritorious before God, - we must believe that nothing further is wanting to the justified, to prevent their being accounted to have, by [b]those very works which have been done in God, fully satisfied the divine law[/b] according to the state of this life, and to have truly merited eternal life, to be obtained also in its (due) time, if so be, however, that they depart in grace..."

To be fair, we should acknowledge that a great emphasis is placed on Jesus Christ and the grace of God. [b]Good works do not originate in man's natural ability but can only be performed through Jesus Christ.[/b] Yet, it is also true that these works do not cease to be the good works of the Christian; personal works give him the right to heaven.

So then, what is required for a person to be justified at the end, that is, to be accounted to have fully satisfied divine law, and therefore to merit eternal life? Trent answers: THEIR GOOD WORKS! Their good works fully satisfy the divine law. Their works merit eternal life.

Catholic theology insists that the Christian's good works are truly his good merits, and by these works, he preserves and increases the initial righteousness received in baptism to finally attain eternal life (canons 24 and 32). Without doubt, the official documents of the Roman Catholic Church teach justification by works.

In contrast to this, the Bible declares:

“Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes (reckons, credits to one’s account) righteousness apart from works” (Romans 4:4-6).

The Bible asserts that he who "does not work" but "believes" is justified before God. Justification is not the reward for our works. Justification is the free gift of grace which we do not merit. The works that a Christian performs - and every true believer performs good works - are not the basis of their acceptance before God. The blood and righteousness of Jesus is the only basis for the believer's justification. "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him... by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous" (Romans 5:9, 19).

That is the true Gospel; Rome’s message is counterfeit.

Note: When reading Trent's canons on Justification, keep in mind that the Protestant teaching is constantly caricatured as if we hold that there is nothing more to salvation than the remission of sins. Nothing could be further from the truth. We believe that regeneration and sanctification are integral aspects of salvation. So, for example, concerning canon 11, [b]we do not exclude the grace and love poured in our hearts by the Holy Spirit. On the other hand, we do not believe that our standing before God is based on our inherent righteousness, but only on account of the righteousness of Christ imputed (credited) to us by faith and His substitutionary sacrifice for our sins.[/b][/quote]

i remember talking about graced works before, and people being against it.
i'm not sure how one could be against saying the CC teaches graced works, not just works alone without God, are what adds to teh justification, while noting that all concede the final grace is undeserved. (insofar as you don't realy deserve it.... but at least you participated, so in a sense you do, kinda way)

Edited July 23, 2008 by dairygirl4u2c

[dairygirl4u2c]

catholics do not define that you have to be perfected by your death. they do not say you have to have more works than bad deeds or otherwise scale your works. they simply say santification that does occur also justifies.

they do not say that you ahve to have an increasing amount of works. though, this would be an implied doctrine i think. but, it's also be implied in prot camps that it has to increase as you get holier, otherwise you were never saved to begin with, or you were living a lie (pick the prot brand here). the question isn't about the calculus of increasing, it's what the santification techincally does.

it's really in a awy a minor point, does the santification add to the justification or not? in a way it's a major point if you want to split hairs. in both camps it has to be occurring. since neither camps defines how much or whatever, i don't see it as major other than a fundamental judgement call about how we are saved.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote]Church Fathers on Justification by Faith

Question: Are there examples from church history of leaders in the Catholic Church who taught salvation by grace through faith alone, or something approaching it?

Answer: Yes, definitely. Most of the quotations from the Church Fathers and Catholic scholars listed below were compiled by James Buchanan in his classic book "Justification" and listed in the abridged version, "Not Guilty" (Grace Publications).

Clement of Rome: "We also, being called through God's will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith" (Epistle to Corinthians).

Ignatius: "His cross, and his death, and his resurrection, and the faith which is through him, are my unpolluted muniments; and in these, through your prayers, I am willing to be justified (Epistle to Philadelphians). Note: "muniments" are title deeds, documents giving evidence of legal ownership of something.

Polycarp: "I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

Justin Martyr: "No longer by the blood of goats and of sheep, or by the ashes of a heifer...are sins purged, but by faith, through the blood of Christ and his death, who died on this very account (Dialogue with Trypho). "God gave his own Son the ransom for us...for what, save his righteousness, could cover our sins. In whom was it possible that we, transgressors and ungodly as we were, could be justified, save in the Son of God alone? ...O unexpected benefit, that the transgression of many should be hidden in one righteous Person and that the righteousness of One should justify many transgressors" (Letter to Diognetus).

Ireneus: "Through the obedience of one man who first was born from the Virgin, many should be justified and receive salvation."

Cyprian: "If Abraham believed in God and it was imputed to him for righteousness, then each one, who believes in God and lives by faith, is found to be a righteous person."

Athanasius: "Not by these (i.e. human efforts) but by faith, a man is justified as was Abraham."

Basil: "This is the true and perfect glorying in God, when a man is not lifted up on account of his own righteousness, but has known himself to be wanting in true righteousness and to be justified by faith alone in Christ."

Ambrose: "Without the works of the law, to an ungodly man, that is to say, a Gentile, believing in Christ, his "faith is imputed for righteousness" as also it was to Abraham."

Origen: "Through faith, without the works of the law, the dying thief was justified, because...the Lord inquired not what he had previously wrought, nor yet waited for his performance of some work after he should have believe; but...he took him unto himself for a companion, justified through his confession alone."

Jerome: "When an ungodly man is converted, God justified him through faith alone, not on account of good works which he possessed not."

Chrysostom: "What then did God do? He made (says Paul) a righteous Person (Christ) to be a sinner, in order that he might make sinners righteous... it is the righteousness of God, when we are justified, not by works...but by grace, where all sin is made to vanish away."

Chrysostom: "Again, they said that he who adhered to Faith alone was cursed, but he shows that hewho adhered to Faith alone, is blessed."

Augustine: "Grace is give to you, not wages paid to you...it is called grace because it is given gratuitously. By no precedent merits did you buy what you have received. The sinner therefore received this grace first, that his sins should be forgiven him...good works follow after a justified person; they do not go before in order that he may be justified...good works, following after justification, show what a man has received."

Augustine: "Now, having duly considered and weighed all these circumstances and testimonies, we conclude that a man is not justified by the precepts of a holy life, but by faith in Jesus Christ,--in a word, not by the law of works, but by the law of faith; not by the letter, but by the spirit; not by the merits of deeds, but by free grace."

Anselm: "Do you believe that you cannot be saved but by the death of Christ? Go, then, and ...put all your confidence in this death alone. If God shall say to you, "You are a sinner", say to him, "I place the death of our Lord Jesus Christ between me and my sin.""

Bernard of Clairvaux: "Shall not all our righteousness turn out to be mere unrighteousness and deficiency? What, then, shall it be concerning our sins, when not even our righteousness can answer for itself? Wherefore...let us flee, with all humility to Mercy which alone can save our souls...whoever hungers and thirsts after righteousness, let him believe in thee, who "justified the ungodly"; and thus, being justified by faith alone, he shall have peace with God."

We thank God that, despite the ferocious assault of the enemy on His church with all sort of false ideas, the core message of the Gospel was known, taught and believed by many throughout the centuries. The same is true today!

Further reading

Justification in the Ancient Church Fathers by James Buchanan (1519-1605)[/quote]

[url="http://www.justforcatholics.org/a84.htm"]http://www.justforcatholics.org/a84.htm[/url]

[Apotheoun]

[i]Justification[/i], which is better translated as [i]righteousness[/i], is not distinct from [i]sanctification[/i]. Thus, to be saved one must recapitulate the virtues inherently present within his nature as an image and likeness of God.

[MakeYouThink]

[quote name='Anna' post='1088' date='Jul 5 2003, 07:44 AM']Well, how's this? (I am no good at trying to imagine the protestant thought processes, so this is a real challenge for me.)

[b]Protestant[/b]: Are you saved? B)

[b]Catholic[/b]: Gee, I won't know that until after I'm judged, and God tells me...

[b]Protestant[/b]: You poor thing. All you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior, invite Him into your heart, and you will be saved!

[b]Catholic[/b]: Gee, that's it? No having to get up on Sunday and go to Mass, or going to confession? What if I fall into sin, how can my soul be cleansed again?

[b]Protestant[/b]: Nahhh. You don't need no stinkin' confession! We are saved by Faith alone, not by works. It says so right here in my trusty King James Version of the Bible.

[b]Catholic[/b]: Really, it says that in the Bible? I don't gotta do nothin'? And I still get to go to heaven?

[b]Protestant[/b]: Directly to heaven! No pitt stops in Purgatory or anything else!
All you gotta do is invite Jesus into your heart! Oh, and stop talkin to His Mom...that's a big no no in our book...

[b]Catholic[/b]: Hey, you said I didn't have to do nothin'!

Well, at least I think that's how a Protestant dialogue might go with a couple of my teenagers.... [/quote]


Hmmmmm,

I have a different thought process.

Catholic : So, have you gone to confession lately?

Protestant : Yes, I have confessed all my sins to God, who is good and faithful to forgive me.

Catholic : Yeah, God can forgive you, but I know I am forgiven because my Priest told me so.

Protestant : You need to hear from another man that you are forgiven.

Catholic : Well, yes. Jesus said the Apostles could forgive sins. It gives me comfort that I am forgiven by God because my priest said so.

Protestant : You must be like Thomas.

Catholic : What do you mean?

Protestant : He needed physical proof that Jesus had risen.

Catholic : Well, I guess so.

Protestant : I don't need physical proof, I just believe God when he said I will cleanse him from his iniquity, whereby he has sinned against me; and I will pardon all his iniquities, whereby he has sinned, and whereby he has transgressed against me from Jeremiah 33:8.

Catholic : Well, I believe in Tradition, not just in the Bible.

Protestant : So, you don't trust God's promises?

Catholic : Well, I believe I am doing everything God tells us to do from the Bible.

Protestant : You didn't answer my question. Anyways, I don't think there is anything I can do to earn heaven. I am too sinful to enter into heaven, and that is why I am glad God cleanses me from my sins! He has washed me with the abrasive cleanser of Jesus Christ's blood. It humbled me, and it hurt, but I am better for it!

Catholic : But you sins don't get cleansed until you enter Purgatory.

Protestant : Purgatory?

Catholic : Yeah, the place God puts you into fire to make you pure from sin, so you can go to heaven.

Protestant : I don't really care if I make it to heaven. I only want to be at Jesus feet, worshiping him. I don't think God would make you spend time being purified before you worship him at his feet.

Catholic : You don't?

Protestant : No I don't. I think God wants us in his presence with our praise and worship from the moment we are born to the end of eternity. He wouldn't have a moment where we aren't worshiping him for his grace, mercy, and love!

Catholic : Now that you said it like that, I'm not sure how to respond to that. You make sense. God doesn't want us away from him because if we are, he wouldn't be there to worship.

Protestant : Good. Now, lets forget all of this, because you're my brother, and it shouldn't matter what we think of God, as long as we do!