Latin Mass in Phoenix

[Oik]

I love my †Bishop†!




[quote][b]Bishop restores Latin Mass[/b]

By Lawn Griffiths, Tribune

June 21, 2005

The Old Mass has regained critical mass in the Roman Catholic Diocese of Phoenix. The one-year experiment to determine whether enough Valley Catholics wanted Masses in Latin — the mother tongue of the church — has ended.



And Bishop Thomas Olmsted has declared Latin a winner.

The response to a first year of "Tridentine liturgy" or Latin Masses at St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church in east Phoenix has been so strong that Olmsted is making them permanent, and extending the special Masses to more parishes.

After July 1, a Tridentine Mass will be offered Sundays at St. Augustine in Phoenix, which has a largely Hispanic congregation. For Catholics in the northern parts of the diocese, a Latin Mass will be on Sundays at St. Cecilia’s Catholic Church in Clarkdale.

The Phoenix diocese had gone 35 years without traditional Latin Masses in wake of the sweeping reforms ushered in by Vatican Council II (1962-65).

Changes implemented in 1969 included turning priests around to face their parishioners instead of the altar, new music instead of Gregorian chants and Masses in the congregation’s native tongue instead of Latin.

But some traditionalists resented changes and appealed for a return to the Old Mass, with its cadences and rhythms.

More than 1,300 Catholics packed into St. Thomas the Apostle, 2312 E. Campbell Ave., Phoenix, on June 6, 2004, for the return of the Latin Mass. They heard phrases like "Sanctus, sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth" instead of "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God of Hosts." Some came with their old Latin missals.

People showed up that day out of both "piety and curiosity," said the Rev. Greg Kotnis of Sun City, who conducted the Mass.

"Surprisingly, there were many young people, too. The old people were nostalgic for the old message," he said.

"It is the Mass of the ages," said Michael Malone, whose wife Ann and seven children regularly attend the Mass at 1 p.m. Sundays at St. Thomas. "It’s been the succor of countless saints, and for us, my wife and my family, it expresses the best sense of the sacred, the mystery and the sacrifice of the Mass."

The Phoenix man said more than 300 Catholics come from across the Valley, driving up to an hour each way, to take part in the Mass where the priest faces the altar, chants resound from a choir and altar boys hold prayer together at the foot of the altar before the formal Mass starts.

It carries the tradition of receiving the Holy Eucharist on the tongue instead in the hand. Women commonly wear veils or mantillas.

Rick Severs of Scottsdale, who went to that first Mass, never went back.

"I did enjoy that, and it really brought back a lot of childhood memories, with the Latin songs and responses," he said. "But it is like anything else, you accept change slowly but once change comes, you don’t want to go back. You see how the change was really good."

Olmsted has given the special community of Latin Masses at St. Thomas the Apostle Catholic Church "mission" status, putting it in line to be a possible Latin parish someday. He has named the mission "Mater Misericordiae," which means "Mother of Mercy."

Rev. Alonso Saenz was named pastor, and he also will continue serving St. Augustine Parish in west Phoenix. Saenz will be assisted by the Rev. Stephane Dupre, a French priest with the Fraternity of St. Peter, now working in the Diocese of Sacramento (Calif.). Dupre will arrive July 1 and live at St. Augustine.

Priests with enough experience in officiating Latin Masses may do so, but the number is limited in the diocese.

The Rev. R. Clements, pastor of St. Mary’s Catholic Parish in Chandler, holds occasional Tridentine Masses and recently conducted a funeral in the Old Rite. "He wore the black vestments and turned his back to the congregation," said parishioner Mary Douglas. "He is very traditional and very devout."[/quote]

[iggy]

now if only they would do Tucson, too.

i know they are working on fixing the US, so i will wait, and pray

[Oik]

[quote name='iggy' date='Jun 21 2005, 01:49 PM']now if only they would do Tucson, too. 

i know they are working on fixing the US, so i will wait, and pray
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They have two traditional masses in tuscon! There is also the beautiful mission of San Javier or something for the Tohono O'odolm (sp).

[iggy]

yes, the san javier mission is amazing, but a lot of the parishes are iffy.

[Noel's angel]

I know for a fact that few would turn up for Latin Mass in our parish. It's difficult enough getting people to come to Mass in a language they undertsand

[jezic]

it is the young people that will bring back the Latin to the Church. The older ones think that we are trying to ruin the Catholic Church. I have asked several of them. Some said they would practically leave the Church even though i explained it would be optional and maybe a weekday Mass instead of a weekend.

I just about cried. How can they see Latin as anything but beautiful?

[Noel's angel]

Maybe they prefer it in English

[Guest Eremite]

I went to the Latin Mass at St. Thomas once. Beautiful Church, inside and out. It has that nice little garden with the water fountain. Good turnout for the Mass, as well.

[jezic]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:20 PM']Maybe they prefer it in English
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the problem is they don't even want to learn. If the Mass is the source and summit of Life and the Eucharist necessarily for life in the Church, would you not want to understand if you couldn't?

If i moved to Africa and didn't understand a word i would ask questions immediately and start learning the language so i could.

Why don't they have that attitude?

I am tired of people telling me they are to old to learn. you learn stuff everyday.

[Noel's angel]

yes you do. But in the culture that we live in, people hate change. People hated Mass in English, now they hate Mass in Latin. Once they are used to something, it is difficult to take it away from them without a fuss

[Oik]

Care is needed in appraoching the Tridentine Mass. Those who don not like it can dislike.

The Church is not going to return to the Tridentine Mass.

It is a good sign that the Tridentine Mass is being celebrated. The church herself is progressive (read Ratzinger report, Cardinal Ratzinger says this himself).

The reform of the reform is happening,but it won't mean all altar rails, gregorian chant, and Mass in Latin. What we will likely see is more chants and polyphony, possibly intinction, and some prayers said in Latin duriong the Mass (ex. Agnes Dei).

With the New Missal coming out, we will see a Sacred English being used. This is exciting! Also, if the Music is to change, we need musicians trained in Sacred music! We need education! The rallying cry so important, stressed by Vatican II is that we are all calledd to holiness...We are the reform of the reform!



God Bless,
Chels

[jezic]

then they should learn that change is an everyday thing and get over it.

I don't mean to sound so uncharitable, but this is the MASS. IT IS IMPORTANT.

English or Latin is alright, but many of them don't understand the Mass in English either.

Change isn't so hard, it feels a little uncomfortable at first but that is alright. Why would people be afraid of it?

Maybe i think very differently from everyone else. That is possible. It is just that none of their arguments make sense to me.

[jezic]

i like that idea, though some words don't make sense to me.

[Aloysius]

IF it were all Latin again, or at least as Vatican II attended mostly latin with the allowance of the vernacular in some parts, and you all were right that mass attendence would go down...

at least our priest to layperson ratio would go up.

it sounds harsh, but I am serious. if they can't get over their preferences for "worship"... perhaps they need to ask themselves if they've ever really worshiped (because worship is NOT about doing what you prefer, but giving it all to God) or if they ever really had the supernatural gift of faith.

I wouldn't mind flushing out all the people in this Church who do not really worship at Mass. and any liturgical change that made a whole bunch of people stop receiving the Eucharist weekly would definitely be flushing out only those people who don't really worship. I would be the first to say to them "good bye, and good riddens"

anyway, as far as reform of the reform... I think it brings in store doing what Vatican II intended... it's not vernacular with a few allowances for Latin, it's LATIN with a few allowances for VERNACULAR (read VII). receiving in the hand is a United States indult... is not receiving standing up also a United States indult? then there is no reason altar rails also wouldn't be reform of the reform... because these indults were not part of the original VII reform.

[jezic]

what is an indult?

and though that sounds nice to some people (flushing out the fake believers) there are graces inherent in the Mass that they receive whether they like it or not. The whole argument would be strange as well because God thinks they are worth it. He sent his Son to die on a cross and everyday He sends His Son to us in the Eucharist. So while i might agree with you, we must never seek to alienate the others, only to help them understand. Christ desires that everyone be a part of the true Church. Creating more resentment won't help that.

They need to understand what and why and come to truly believe.

This is an expression at the very heart of the virtue of Charity. We can't say they don't deserve it, because none of us deserved the sacrifice of Christ at all.