Apotheoun Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 This is another example of the Catholic [i]both[/i] / [i]and[/i] as opposed to the [i]either[/i] / [i]or[/i] situation. Original sin applies in both ways, it is the original sin of Adam, i.e., a particular personal act on the part of Adam, and it is also the state of being inherited by all men as descendants of Adam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scardella Posted June 21, 2005 Author Share Posted June 21, 2005 So, basically I'm reading too much into it, I suppose... But, to continue our conversation, if Original Sin is the sin of Adam and not Eve, and we inherit that, is Eve's sin merely personal sin and she fell independently of Adam? What would we call that? It seems to ignore her sin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 21 2005, 09:09 AM']Right. That about sums it up. [right][snapback]617931[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='scardella' date='Jun 21 2005, 09:12 AM']So, basically I'm reading too much into it, I suppose... But, to continue our conversation, if Original Sin is the sin of Adam and not Eve, and we inherit that, is Eve's sin merely personal sin and she fell independently of Adam? What would we call that? It seems to ignore her sin. [right][snapback]617938[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Eve also commits a personal sin in eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but she is not the head of the human race and so her act, unlike Adam's, does not affect the human race in the same way that his act does. Eve's sinful act can be seen in a mystical sense as the beginning of sin. That is why the Fathers of the Church see Mary's act of obedience as effacing the disobedience of Eve, and as a consequence Mary's righteous act begins the redemption. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:15 PM']Eve also commits a personal sin in eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but she is not the head of the human race and so her act, unlike Adam's, does not affect the human race in the same way that his act does. [right][snapback]617945[/snapback][/right] [/quote] What about the fact that she sinned first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='thedude' date='Jun 21 2005, 09:23 AM']What about the fact that she sinned first? [right][snapback]617959[/snapback][/right] [/quote] She is not the head of the race, therefore her sin does not affect anyone else, except perhaps by example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 21 2005, 11:24 AM']She is not the head of the race, therefore her sin does not affect anyone else, except perhaps by example. [right][snapback]617962[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Supposing Adam did not sin, but Eve did. We would then have a perfect human being (in body and soul) mating with a fallen human being (in body and soul). I don't see how they could progenerate incorruptible children. Perhaps God would have cast Eve into hell and fashioned a new wife for Adam... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 21 2005, 09:28 AM']Supposing Adam did not sin, but Eve did. We would then have a perfect human being (in body and soul) mating with a fallen human being (in body and soul). I don't see how they could progenerate incorruptible children. Perhaps God would have cast Eve into hell and fashioned a new wife for Adam... [right][snapback]617972[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Eve could have been forgiven and restored. It is the fall of the head of the human family that severes communion between God and man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 Also, consider Sirach 25:24 [quote]In woman was sin's beginning, and [i]because of her[/i] we all die.[/quote] I could see this verse more than one way. It is interesting though. I'd be curious in any Magisterial judgements on this question, ie, whether Adam's sin alone determined the fate of humanity. If you could cite anything that would distinguish it from a theological speculation, I'd appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 21 2005, 11:28 AM'] Supposing Adam did not sin, but Eve did. We would then have a perfect human being (in body and soul) mating with a fallen human being (in body and soul). I don't see how they could progenerate incorruptible children. Perhaps God would have cast Eve into hell and fashioned a new wife for Adam... Also, consider Sirach 25:24 [QUOTE]In woman was sin's beginning, and [i]because of her[/i] we all die. [right][snapback]617972[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Perhaps they could not have and God would have had to make Adam another wife, but it matters not because he did fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 There is a mystical connection between the fall and the redemption, between Eve and Mary, and Adam and Christ. Can Mary's act of righteous obedience save anyone in separation from the Paschal Mystery of Christ the Head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote] Can Mary's act of righteous obedience save anyone in separation from the Paschal Mystery of Christ the Head? [/quote] We can get to that later (or not). I'm just curious if you know of any Magisterial sources for this concept, or if it is a common theological opinion, a la Limbo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 21 2005, 09:47 AM']We can get to that later (or not). I'm just curious if you know of any Magisterial sources for this concept, or if it is a common theological opinion, a la Limbo. [right][snapback]617994[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It is all connected to the dogma of original sin, which is the sin of Adam, the head of the human race. It is also connected to the theology of headship, both of Adam and Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 So is that a no, it's not an actual teaching of the Church? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted June 21, 2005 Share Posted June 21, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:32 PM']Also, consider Sirach 25:24 I could see this verse more than one way. It is interesting though. I'd be curious in any Magisterial judgements on this question, ie, whether Adam's sin alone determined the fate of humanity. If you could cite anything that would distinguish it from a theological speculation, I'd appreciate it. [right][snapback]617977[/snapback][/right] [/quote] It could mean that because she sinned, she caused Adam to sin, and thus we die (Eve being the indirect reason for our death). But it also could not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now