Not Justified By Faith Alone?

[ICTHUS]

Well all, I'm going through numerous theological crises, as you may have noticed. My latest:

When I was Protestant, I believed that my works flowed out of my love for God, and as the Father had loved me and sent His Son to die for me, so was I going to love the world whom He loved enough to die for.

Now that I'm Catholic, I dont believe that we are justified by faith alone, but what is the correct attitude towards works? Do we have to perform x amount of works per day, (which is just a tad legalistic) or is it more a matter of what I did when I was a Protestant, which is basically this: keep my own relationship with God working (i.e. keep myself in a state of Sanctifying Grace) and works will flow out of that loving communion.

What are your thoughts? Has anyone had a similar crisis?

[hyperdulia again]

i've always suspected that prots and caths believe the exact same thing on faith and works, but phrase it differently, excepting of course the osas crowd.

[KennC]

... or is it more a matter of what I did when I was a Protestant, which is basically this: keep my own relationship with God working (i.e. keep myself in a state of Sanctifying Grace) and works will flow out of that loving communion.

... I don't know ICTHUS, from first reading of the post, why would you feel the need to change anything. Free flowing love manifesting itself into works where those who meet you are raised up even for that moment ... stemming from His good Grace and your love of God, ... I just can't see any room for concern here at the moment.

Hang in there,

Peace of Christ, Ken

[Katholikos]

Suggested reading:

Not By Faith Alone, The Biblical Evidence for the Catholic Doctrine of Justification by Robert Sungenis, Queenship Publishing Company, 1997.

Robert Sungenis is the president of Catholic Apologetics International, a lay organization dedicated to teaching and defending the Catholic Faith. Born into a Catholic family in 1955, Robert left the Church and became a Reformed Protestant at the age of 19. He served as an elder, itinerant preacher, adult education director, and radio Bible teacher. He converted back to Catholicism in 1992.

(from the preface)

This book is for scholars are well as for laymen. It suits your intellect.

Sungenis also wrote Not By Scripture Alone, A Catholic Critique of the Protestant Doctrine of Sola Scriptura, and Not By Bread Alone, the Biblical and Historical evidence for the Eucharistic Sacrifice. They're all published by Queenship.

Last I heard, he was working on his Ph.D. He's probably finished it by now. His Masters is from Westminster Theological Seminary (1982) -- which you'll recognize as Protestant/Reformed.

JMJ Likos

[willguy]

I'm with hyper on this one. Protestants say that to be saved we must have faith. However, their definition of faith is a living faith as described in James (one that bears works). Catholics say that to be saved we must have faith and works.

There are some small differences (mainly dealing with minor stresses here or there), but the main argument seems to be the words themselves and not the implications behind them.

[Kiddkapps]

Well all, I'm going through numerous theological crises, as you may have noticed. My latest:

When I was Protestant, I believed that my works flowed out of my love for God, and as the Father had loved me and sent His Son to die for me, so was I going to love the world whom He loved enough to die for.

Now that I'm Catholic, I dont believe that we are justified by faith alone, but what is the correct attitude towards works? Do we have to perform x amount of works per day, (which is just a tad legalistic) or is it more a matter of what I did when I was a Protestant, which is basically this: keep my own relationship with God working (i.e. keep myself in a state of Sanctifying Grace) and works will flow out of that loving communion.

What are your thoughts? Has anyone had a similar crisis?

Charity from Caritas meaning perfect love. We are asked to do acts of perfect love.

So neither by faith alone, neither by works alone. I'm with hyper on this as well. i find that a lot in this type of debate tends to be a matter of semantics as opposed to concepts behind the words used. Many Prots define their "saving faith" as including works that flow from it. Catholics couple faith and works as outlined in James and Matthew. But it's all God's grace.

So I just repeated what everyone was saying. Now that was fun.

:P

[Katholikos]

The salient paragraph in the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on Justification, signed in 1999:

"Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works."

So, justification is by grace alone, not "faith alone." This has always been the teaching of the Church. It is grace that enables faith and grace that enables works. Both are required (Mt 25:31-46, James 2:24).

Luther loses.

Edited November 14, 2003 by Katholikos

[cathqat]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 14 2003, 02:24 AM']Now that I'm Catholic, I dont believe that we are justified by faith alone, but what is the correct attitude towards works? Do we have to perform x amount of works per day, (which is just a tad legalistic) or is it more a matter of what I did when I was a Protestant, which is basically this: keep my own relationship with God working (i.e. keep myself in a state of Sanctifying Grace) and works will flow out of that loving communion.

What are your thoughts? Has anyone had a similar crisis?[/quote]

Refer to the following reasources:

[url="http://www.cuf.org/nonmemb/justification.pdf"]It Works for Me: The Church's Teaching on Justification[/url]
[url="http://shop.catholic.com/cgi-local/SoftCart.exe/online-store/scstore/p-CA132.html?L+scstore+mjjh1706ff4aa44a+1108271341"][i]Faith Alone: Is It Justifiable?[/i] audio presentation by Scott Hahn[/url]
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/righteou.htm"][i]Righteousness and Merit[/i] by Jimmy Akin[/url] (unfortunately, this file has a few holes)
[url="http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/grace_al.htm"][i]Justification by Grace Alone[/i] by Jimmy Akin[/url]
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1889334316"][i]The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism[/i] by Louis Bouyer (now back in print, ISBN: 1889334316)[/url]
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/ORANGE.HTM"]Second Council of Orange[/url]
[url="http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct05os.htm"]Council of Trent's Decree on Original Sin[/url]
[url="http://history.hanover.edu/early/trent/ct06d1.htm"]Council of Trent's Decree on Justification[/url]
[url="http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/sub-index/index_lutheran-fed.htm"]Catholic-Lutheran Joint Declaration on Justification[/url]

One of my favorite passages from Catholic Apologist Jimmy Akin:

[quote]You don't have to do a diddly-do-da thing after being justified by God in baptism in order to go to heaven. There is no magic level of works one needs to achieve in order to go to heaven. One is saved the moment one is initially justified. The only things one then does is good works because one loves God (the only kind which receive rewards) and not choose to cast out God's grace by mortal sin. And even if one does cast it out by mortal sin, the only thing needed to get it back was the same thing needed to get it in the first place -- repentance, faith, and sacrament, except the sacrament in this case is confession rather than baptism.

People try to make the Catholic message sound complex, but it's really simple: "Repent, believe and be baptized (c.f. Acts 2:37-39); then if you commit mortal sin, repent, believe, and confess. Period." -- even a five year old child can understand that.[/quote]


[color=blue][b]The Most Basic Catholic Teaching on Justification in a Nutshell[/b]

Without God, you're dead (Eph. 2:5), and there's absolutely nothing --not works, not faith, not anything-- a dead person can do to make himself alive (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Justification[/i] chapter 8). A dead person cannot be a cause in his own regeneration (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Justification[/i] chapter 7). Unfortunately for us, this is the state into which we were born, in Adam, deprived of grace and spiritual life (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Original Sin[/i], [i]Decree on Justification[/i] chapter 1).

However, when the Father gratuitously recreates you in Christ (2Cor. 5:17-18), gives you supernatural life by "the Spirit of sonship" (Rom. 8:15-17), and gives you faith, hope, and charity (the virtues of 1Cor. 13:13), He can empower you with His grace to do anything (Council of Trent, [i]Decree on Justification[/i]). After all, "all things are possible with God" (Mk. 10:27) and "nothing will be impossible to you" (Mt. 17:20). Jesus promised "you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you" (Acts 1:18). To what purpose? "We have received grace... to bring about the obedience of faith" (Rom. 1:5; also known as "faith working in love" in Gal. 5:6, which Paul calls "good works" in Eph. 2:10). The Lord says "My grace is sufficient for you" (2Cor. 12:9), and we answer "by the grace of God I am what I am" (1Cor 15:10), a child of God the Father (1Jn. 3:1).

Our Father really does have both the love and the power to completely transform men, in Christ and by the Holy Spirit, into beloved sons.

[i]If you can understand and remember this, you can understand Catholic teaching about justification.[/i][/color]

[InHisHands381]

Strange...my Lutheran friend and I were talking about this today...We both described it how we see it and it was basically the same thing. We came to the conclusion that the difference must be in the technicalities....guess we were right

[thessalonian]

I here of the billions going to the far east today, much of it by religous organizations and I wonder if protestants for the most part do in ignorance what the law requires anyway. -_-

Romans 2:14
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,


This is what the law really requires:


Isaiah 1:12-18
"When you come to appear before Me,
Who requires of you this trampling of My courts?
"Bring your worthless offerings no longer,
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and sabbath, the calling of assemblies--
I cannot endure iniquity and the solemn assembly.
"I hate your new moon festivals and your appointed feasts,
They have become a burden to Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
"So when you spread out your hands in prayer,
I will hide My eyes from you;
Yes, even though you multiply prayers,
I will not listen.
Your hands are covered with blood.
"Wash yourselves, make yourselves clean;
Remove the evil of your deeds from My sight.
Cease to do evil,
Learn to do good;
Seek justice,
Reprove the ruthless,
Defend the orphan,
Plead for the widow.

I do think our favor with God comes from what he has already done for us which is not just a positional change but that he has also internally changed us ("you are a new creation) so that our works are no longer filthy rags but are pleasing to him and bring us reward. It must however be noted that he acts in us first. No amount of works can save a man who is not actually in a state of grace.

Blessings

Edited January 1, 2005 by thessalonian