By whom and when was scripture written?

[LittleLes]

And, finally, moving along with the "Who" question (before the "When" question).

The first five books of the Old Testment, the oldest called the Pentateuch, are traditionally suppose to have been written by Moses. But the present thinking is that this is only a legend. To be sure, some of what is contained could have been passed on by Moses, perhaps as oral tradition, but the actual writings are of a much later date.

Literary analysis established that these first five books had multiple authors.

(1) The Jahwist or "J"
(2) The Elohist or "E"
(3) The Deuteronomist or "D"
(4) The Priestly Source of "P"
and there was evidently a redactor (editor) who compiled these documents, probably during the Babylonian Captivity.

The reasons for this conclusion include the following:

(1). There are a number of "doublets" or duplicate yet differing versions of the same events, eg:
(a) two creation stories
(b) two Flood accounts
© two versions of the Ten Commandments
(d) etc.

(2). The use of different important terms or the omission of such terms in different sections of the writings.

(3) Anachoronisms (events described that could not have happened in Moses' time).

(4) Suggestions within the writings that strongly suggest different locations of the authorships.

to be continued.......

[jezic]

alright that is great littleles again though i wonder, does it matter? Is it really important for the salvation of man to know if Moses physically wrote them or just orally handed the stuff on?

If you are a true believer it shouldn't matter.

If it doesn't matter why even ask?

[jezic]

no Cam i didn't mean you but that is alright.

littles if you are not able to define for yourself what a fact is then how can you be sure they exist at all?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 22 2005, 11:26 AM']alright that is great littleles again though i wonder, does it matter? Is it really important for the salvation of man to know if Moses physically wrote them or just orally handed the stuff on?

If you are a true believer it shouldn't matter.

If it doesn't matter why even ask?
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

I think it would be important to know if the first five books of the Old Testament are history or legend; you know, that Original Sin business, commandments, etc.

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 22 2005, 11:23 AM']And, finally, moving along with the "Who" question (before the "When" question).

The first five books of the Old Testment, the oldest called the Pentateuch, are traditionally suppose to have been written by Moses. But the present thinking is that this is only a legend. To be sure, some of what is contained could have been passed on by Moses, perhaps as oral tradition, but the actual writings are of a much later date.

Literary analysis established that these first five books had multiple authors.

(1) The Jahwist or "J"
(2) The Elohist or "E"
(3) The Deuteronomist or "D"
(4) The Priestly Source of "P"
and there was evidently a redactor (editor) who compiled these documents, probably during the Babylonian Captivity.

The reasons for this conclusion include the following:

(1). There are a number of "doublets" or duplicate yet differing versions of the same events, eg:
    (a) two creation stories
    (b) two Flood accounts
    © two versions of the Ten Commandments
    (d) etc.

(2). The use of different important terms or the omission of such terms in different sections of the writings.

(3) Anachoronisms (events described that could not have happened in Moses' time).

(4) Suggestions within the writings that strongly suggest different locations of the authorships.

to be continued.......
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[/quote]

What's your point.....this is merely a theory.....there is nothing provable by any of this.....granted it is a pervasive theory, but nevertheless a theory.

And at any rate, what matter does it make who wrote the Bible. Any of it. It isn't about who wrote it, but rather who inspired the writing of it. The men (I supppose at some point you'll argue that it was women) who wrote the Bible were inspired, by God. The means are irrelevant, the meaning is all important. The translations are also not all that important either....although the Vulgate is inerrant (regardless of what you think).

[LittleLes]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 22 2005, 11:28 AM']no Cam i didn't mean you but that is alright.

littles if you are not able to define for yourself what a fact is then how can you be sure they exist at all?
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

I believe I gave Webster's definition of "fact" and "fiction." Why would my own be any different?

Do you have an assertion to make?

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 22 2005, 11:39 AM']RESPONSE:

I think it would be important to know if the first five books of the Old Testament are history or legend; you know, that Original Sin business, commandments, etc.
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That's the problem, you think too much....how about believing? Sometimes you simply can't explain it all away.....regardless of what you think.....oops there you go again, thinking.....

:rotfl:

[Mateo el Feo]

LittleLes' (still afraid to reveal his own beliefs ) summarizes his beliefs as follows:
1) He believes in fact.
2) He doesn't believe in fiction.

Wow, how bold to go out on a limb and make such assertions!

My observations:[list]
[*]LittleLes has called himself a Catholic, but he denies every distinctively Catholic teaching (not to mention distinctively Christian and distinctively monotheistic belief).
[*]He acts like an agnostic or maybe an atheist; I suppose he's an ex-Catholic with a huge chip on his shoulder.
[*]He has chosen himself as his own personal god.
[*]He attacks cut-and-paste arguments, and gets caught screwing up his own cut-and-paste arguments.
[*]Claims of LittleLes must necessarily be fact in his world. Anything contrary to his claims must necessarily be fiction and based on suspect proof.
[/list]

[jezic]

i realize better why personal attacks are outlawed now.

littles i wish you the best in your search. Seek to find what is truly fact and truly fiction.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 22 2005, 11:42 AM']That's the problem, you think too much....how about believing?  Sometimes you simply can't explain it all away.....regardless of what you think.....oops there you go again, thinking.....

:rotfl:
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RESPONSE:

Why would God have given man an intellect if he didn't want him to think, only believe?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jun 22 2005, 11:43 AM']LittleLes' (still afraid to reveal his own beliefs ) summarizes his beliefs as follows:
1) He believes in fact.
2) He doesn't believe in fiction.

Wow, how bold to go out on a limb and make such assertions!

My observations:[list]

[*]LittleLes has called himself a Catholic, but he denies every distinctively Catholic teaching (not to mention distinctively Christian and distinctively monotheistic belief). 

[*]He acts like an agnostic or maybe an atheist; I suppose he's an ex-Catholic with a huge chip on his shoulder. 

[*]He has chosen himself as his own personal god.

[*]He attacks cut-and-paste arguments, and gets caught screwing up his own cut-and-paste arguments.

[*]Claims of LittleLes must necessarily be fact in his world.  Anything contrary to his claims must necessarily be fiction and based on suspect proof.

[/list]
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RESPONSE:

Your "observations" are your opinions, ie subjective beliefs, not objective realities.

But I think we all are noting that you are not dealing with the issue at hand.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='jezic' date='Jun 22 2005, 11:49 AM']i realize better why personal attacks are outlawed now.

littles i wish you the best in your search. Seek to find what is truly fact and truly fiction.
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[/quote]

RESPONSE:

Thank you, Jezic!

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 22 2005, 01:22 PM']RESPONSE:

Your "observations" are your opinions, ie subjective beliefs, not objective realities. [/quote]
To be precise, most of my "observations" are objective realities, provable by browsing through your previous posts.

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 22 2005, 01:22 PM']But I think we all are noting that you are not dealing with the issue at hand.
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[/quote]
You'll have to forgive me for a post in which I pull you a little further out of the shadows, since you are afraid of coming out into the light on your own.

I have addressed the "issue at hand" by citing where you make demonstrably false statements and citing your biases as a "true believer."

Edited June 22, 2005 by Mateo el Feo

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jun 22 2005, 12:33 PM']To be precise, most of my "observations" are objective realities, provable by browsing through your previous posts.
You'll have to forgive me for a post in which I pull you a little further out of the shadows, since you are afraid of coming out into the light on your own.

I have addressed the "issue at hand" by citing where you make demonstrably false statements and citing your biases as a "true believer."
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RESPONSE:

You've provided no evidence, only assertions without evidence. Anyone can make those.

And I thought I was well "out into the light."

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 22 2005, 12:47 PM']RESPONSE:

You've provided no evidence, only assertions without evidence. Anyone can make those.

And I thought I was well "out into the light."
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For evidence, all one has to do is read through your posts in the "Divinity of Christ" thread, or any one of your closed threads.

Anyway, no point in feeding the troll.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Socrates