By whom and when was scripture written?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jul 5 2005, 01:31 PM']Nice job with the ad hominem.  I happen to have been a student of Dr. Carroll.  As usual, you reject any sources you do not agree with your own anti-Catholic prejudices.  Anyone who agrees with the Catholic Church must automatically be dismissed in the LittleLes game, while any half-cocked hypothesis of some modernist, you take as gospel truth!

Your game of only regarding as legit people who happen to agree with your own views is hardly a sign of objectivity!

And, for the record, Dr. Carroll is a historian, not a theologian, and was not orginally Catholic nor Christian, but his study of history led him to convert to the Catholic Faith.
Everything you've posited on this thread is hypothesis without evidence.

The (non-Christian) historian Kenneth Kitchen has concluded from his research that the events of the Exodus are like those recorded in the Bible, rather than those posited by the modernist revisionist orthodoxy
And there remains no evidence for the "J, E, P, D" authorship theory.
From the same source:
Hebrew dating is not always exact, and you still have no evidence for your Akhenaten theory.  Even if you allow for lots of embellishment, confusing Moses with a Pharoah is just absurd! 
. . .
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RESPONSE:

(1) On the contrary, I agree with Dr. Carroll that the dateof Exodus given by 1 Kings is in error. (Evidently it was a bad day for inspiration! )

(2) Again, on the contrary. I only regard as legitimate those who can properly document their assertions.

(3) Yes. If you recall I pointed out that Dr. Carroll is a historian and not a theologian. I think it might have been CAM who claimed that he was a theologian because he once taught a course labeled the theology of something or other. But it may have been someone else .Whatever the case, he's not.

(4) Are you serious? I've cited the Edomite king who lived in 1010 B.C. being mentioned in the Pentutach by Moses writing 500 year before that king lived. I've cited both Exodus and 1 Kings major contradiction on the timing of the Exodus, and just recently, I pointed out Joshua's reference to the northern and southern kingdoms that didn't exist until after the time of David. That is evidence, my friend, not hypothesis. Look these facts up in the bible yourself, if you doubt my references! :bugeyes:

(5) Please reread my posts. I have proven from the internal evidence of the Pentatuch and Joshua that, unless Moses and Joshua were omniscient and knew the future, it is very questionable if they wrote these. The possibility the the character of Moses was based on a pharoah is not evidenced, only suggested. Moses is claimed to have been famous throughout Egypt (at least by the Bible). Curiously, no engraving or written records of that period mentions his name to suppoort that claim. The the Egyptians kept good records.

(6) And are you seriously trying to claim that Kenneth Kitchen is a non-Christian historian???

"In his private life, he holds himself to be an Evangelical Christian.
He is most frequently cited by Creationists trying to denounce the theory of the Documentary Hypothesis, which claims that Genesis was written by more than a single author."

Look it up.

[LittleLes]

As has been noted, the mention in the Book of Joshua of the two separate kingdoms - Israel, the northern kingdom and Judah, the southern kingdom - is an anachronism since neither eisted until about 900 B.C., the result of a division by King David's sons. Thus an authorship much later than Joshua is evidenced for this passage. In addition, the frequent use of the phrase "to this day" also suggests a later writing.

There are some other contradictions in Joshua, part of the national history of Israel related by the Bible, which we will examine.

But the central theme of these early books is that God, speaking through the community's religious leader, gave the land then inhabited by the Canaanites to the Hebrews, the "Promised Land," and directed the genocide of the Canaanites, their men, women, children, and even cattle.

Does this really sound like something God would do? Or could if be a later justification for a genocide?

[Aloysius]

that sounds like something God would do to me. kill everyone from that people to protect the hebrew people and give them a land where they can create the society necessary to sprout the Messiah. maybe we don't know the same God, my God is not caught up in earthly things and would kill those who he has absolute authority over life and death anyway to bring about His plan of salvation.

it also doesn't sound like a justification for genocide because of much different time period and circumstances.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jul 6 2005, 10:39 AM']that sounds like something God would do to me.  kill everyone from that people to protect the hebrew people and give them a land where they can create the society necessary to sprout the Messiah.  maybe we don't know the same God, my God is not caught up in earthly things and would kill those who he has absolute authority over life and death anyway to bring about His plan of salvation. 

it also doesn't sound like a justification for genocide because of much different time period and circumstances.
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RESPONSE:

Ah yes. The relativity of morality.

Do you think that Israel could claim divine inspiration for any genocide (or equivalent) against the Palestinian people occupying Israel's land today?

[LittleLes]

This contradiction strongly suggests that different writers recorded these legends. Obviously, both are not "innerent."

Joshua 11:10 describes the destruction of the city of Hazon by Joshua and his forces who slaughter King Jabin and all the city's inhabitants, and then burn the city to the ground.

But according to Judges 4:24, the destruction of Hazon and the killing of Jabin et al was accomplished several generations later by the prophetess Deborah and Barak.

Different legends. Think either are historical? Which?

[LittleLes]

And the legend of Joshua and the walls of Jericho also seem to be from a later writings.

The historicity is doubtful. Waves of migration inhabited Jericho starting perhaps as early as 10,000 B.C. New cities were repeatedly built on the ruins of older cities and new walls as well.

Around 2200 BC, long before Josuha, an invading band piled wood around the walls and set the wood on fire. The heat cracked the walls allowing them to be breeched by the invaders. This might be the basis of the Joshua story.

Jericho was rebuilt and destroyed again around 1550 B.C. After this it remained a small village without walls until about 850 BC when the walls were rebuilt.

So it doesn't seem that there were walls for Joshua to have 'tumbling down." In fact, Jericho might not have been inhabited. Also, it is questionable if Joshua was a real person, or just a character in a legend.

[Cam42]

It would seem that this thread is dead....LittleLes is talking to himself......

Everyone, please take the hint.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 8 2005, 12:07 PM']It would seem that this thread is dead....LittleLes is talking to himself......

Everyone, please take the hint.
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RESPONSE:

No it's not. You, at least , are reading it!

(I'm sorry if you are uncomfortable with the historical data )

[LittleLes]

By way of review, we looked at the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Old Testamant ,which traditionally had Moses as their author.

The five books are: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy.

Now we are considering the authorship and dates written of the historical books.

There are twelve: Joshua, Judges, Ruth, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Ester.

These were written at different times and incorporated into the whole.

There is some overlapping between the Pentateuch and the Historical Books. And there is a fair amount of contradiction indicating at the least that different authors and probably different versions of the legends were
involved.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 8 2005, 12:07 PM']It would seem that this thread is dead....LittleLes is talking to himself......

Everyone, please take the hint.
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RESPONSE:

I'll press on with this "dead" thread for the sake of its 1064 nonreaders! :bugeyes:

[Cam42]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jul 8 2005, 05:59 PM']RESPONSE:

I'll press on with this "dead"  thread  for the sake of its 1064 nonreaders! :bugeyes:
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Considering that the only major posters in this are you and I, based upon the data given (quantity not quality, mind you.....that is what you are stating....you are in the high 80's and I am now at 32.)

You are conversing with yourself. This is a dead thread. The counter that you list as justification is much like the counter to someone entering a store. Anytime someone trips the trigger, it lists it. That means that anytime someone edits, reviews, reposts, etc....it counts it. Honestly, I am probably the major person still looking at this, your banter is fun to read, if not misguided. I get a good chuckle at it. :crackup:

Trust me, the thread is dead.

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jul 8 2005, 09:11 PM']Considering that the only major posters in this are you and I, based upon the data given (quantity not quality, mind you.....that is what you are stating....you are in the high 80's and I am now at 32.)

You are conversing with yourself.  This is a dead thread.  The counter that you list as justification is much like the counter to someone entering a store.  Anytime someone trips the trigger, it lists it.  That means that anytime someone edits, reviews, reposts, etc....it counts it.  Honestly,  I am probably the major person still looking at this, your banter is fun to read, if not misguided.  I get a good chuckle at it.  :crackup:

Trust me, the thread is dead.
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RESPONSE:

Since the data I'm presenting clearly evidences that scripture is not inerrant, I can understand why you don't want this thread to continue. I believe that you have argued for the opposiete view in the past, or do you now concur???

"Anytime someone trips the trigger" demonstrates that the thread is not dead. It may not receive many relies except yours (perhaps others have checked my quotations in their bibles and realize that my data is correct)but it seems to be widely read (last count 1076).

So, based on the figures, I'm afraid it would be imprudent to just "Trust Me," and I will continue to provide this evidence to the readership (or maybe those who just "trigger" the list).

LittleLes

So I'll press on.

[LittleLes]

The first two historical books, Joshua and Judges, are in serious contradiction.

Joshua himself is suppose to have written the book that bears his name, but current thinking is that it was written between the tenth and seventh centuries.

It is reported that Joshua entered Canaan after the Exodus (1400 or 1200 B.C), depending on which scripture you believe to be accurate. He then practiced genocide on the inhabitants and divided up the conquered land among the Israelites:

Northern Canaan. Joshua 11:14 "...but the people they put to the sword, until they had exterminated the last of them, leaving none alive."

Southern Canaan. Joshua 10:28 "He fulfilled the doom on the city, on its king, and on every person in it leaving no survivors."

Joshua 18:1 "After they had subdued the land, the whole community of the Israelites assembled at Shiloh where they set up a meeting tent." They then planned how the land would be redistributed among themselves.

But the book of Judges contradicts all of this.

According to Judges, only after the death of Joshua did the conquest of Canaan and the extermination of the Canaanites begin.

The Book of Judges describes Israel before the extablishment of the kingship. Traditionally, it is suppose to have been written by Samuel about 1000 B.C. But it is now thought to have been written sometime between 700 and 600 B.C.

Judges 1:1 "After the death of Joshua the Israelites consulted the Lord, asking "Who shall be the first among us to attack the Canaanites and do battle with them."

So again we have two different legends. Whis is "inerrant"?

[LittleLes]

And Joshua and Judges continue to contradict each other.

Joshua 24:11: “And you went over the Jordan and came to Jericho, and the men of Jericho fought against you, and also the Amorites, the Per'izzites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Gir'gashites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites; and I gave them into your hand."

But,

Judges 3:5: “: So the people of Israel dwelt among the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, the Per'izzites, the Hivites, and the Jeb'usites;" Thus, no fighting: just neighborliness!

Pope Leo XIII claimed that:

"For all the books which the Church receives as sacred and canonical, are written wholly and entirely, with all their parts, at the dictation of the Holy Ghost; and so far is it from being possible that any error can co-exist with inspiration, that inspiration not only is essentially incompatible with error, but excludes and rejects it as absolutely and necessarily as it is impossible that God Himself, the supreme Truth, can utter that which is not true."

But if there is a contradiction, one (or perhaps both) claim imust be in error. Either it happened and is historical, or it didn't happen and is fictional. Thus, one or both of these accounts is fictional.

[Cam42]

[quote]So I'll press on.[/quote]

Are you having a nice conversation with yourself?