How Would You Answer This Question?

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:15 PM']oh, i almost forgot, if anyone has them, i need the scripture verses that support degrees of righteousness in heaven, or levels of honor in heaven. thanks :thumb:
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Scripture seems to indicate the possibility of degrees of honor in Heaven:
[quote]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone [u]according to his conduct[/u].
[b]Matthew 16:27[/b][/quote]
Hierarchy of Angels:
[quote]For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether [u]thrones[/u] or [u]dominions[/u] or [u]principalities[/u] or [u]powers[/u]; all things were created through him and for him.
[b]Colossians 1:16[/b]
[color=red]Note: St. Thomas Aquinas seems to view these as Angelic Orders, not government institutions.[/color][/quote]
Degrees of Honor in Heaven:
[quote]Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet [u]the least in the kingdom of heaven[/u] is greater than he.
[b]Matthew 11:11[/b][/quote]

St. Thomas Aquinas on the Angelic Hierarchy:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/110800.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/110800.htm[/url]

Another good [u]Summa Theologica[/u] link you may find useful:
[url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/509303.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/509303.htm[/url]

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

phatcatholic,
I think Matthew 11:11 (posted above), is what you're looking for.

[Jake Huether]

[quote]"How does Mary play any part in our redemption other than giving birth to our Savior?"[/quote]


That's just silly. Why ask a question like "How does Mary play any part in our redemption" and then automatically remove the anwer with an "other than" clause.

It's like asking, How does a car play any part in our everyday life other than providing us transportation?! LOL.

You guys all have given great answers, and Mary does play a part in our redemption through her perfect example throughout the life of Christ and even after - but...

SHE GAVE BIRTH TO OUR SAVIOR!!!

Besides for Christ himself, what greater role could be played in our redemption??

Christ needed flesh to redeem us, and Mary Gave it to Him! Every other thing Mary did througout her life and that of Jesus pale in comparison to her giving birth to Christ, yet the way they question is posted this anwer is already eliminated!

[phatcatholic]

i took it as an honest question, a want to know if catholics believed that mary played any other roles in our redemption besides her role in the incarnation. as we see here, she does, so i am making sure that i understand these other roles before i answer his question. also, as i said before, i will most certainly ensure that he does not minimalize what it means to give birth to our savior.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

Found another one:
[quote]Whoever humbles himself like this child is the [u]greatest in the kingdom[/u] of heaven.
[b]Matthew 18:4[/b][/quote]

[Cure of Ars]

I don't know if my post was right. I could be wrong. And I know that I did not explain it very well. Maybe we should ask the Church scholars your first question, Phatcatholic. It's a tuff one.

Edited June 22, 2005 by Cure of Ars

[phatcatholic]

*sigh* i haven't had this much trouble w/ apologetics in a while. i think i'm discouraged b/c it seems utterly impossible to explain this to a protestant w/o them calling for my freakin head. mary helping jesus pay the price for our sin? mary, greater and more influential than all the saints in heaven? i just don't know how to explain it in a way that they will accept and understand. it makes me want to just not even try......

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 21 2005, 11:19 AM']By "distributing the merits of christ's suffering" do you mean his work of spreading the Gospel?
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no, i mean, when you give something up and willfully take on suffering for the sake of others, you benefit the body of Christ b/c, in uniting your suffering w/ Christ, you are able to distribute the merits of Christ's work on the cross. i would say that spreading the gospel in and of itself is not how he does it, its that he suffers as he's spreading it, he's getting knocked out, and beat up, and whipped, and shipwrecked and the whole nine...............for the body of Christ.

w/ mary, b/c she was sinless and that she is so intimately connected to the savior, as his mother and handmaid, she united her suffering and her will to Jesus' so perfectly that she even helped pay the price for our sin..........not that Jesus' work would have been deficient w/o her but that he willed (and SHE willed) that a couple make right what another couple made wrong.

btw, this is me practicing explaining this to people......

[phatcatholic]

[quote]Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.[/quote]i've always taken this to mean that if your works were noble then you were rendered heaven, and if they weren't you were rendered hell--not necessarily that this person could have one position in heaven and that person have a greater position in heaven. basically, its between heaven and hell, not heaven A and heaven B. at least, that's how i've always understood it, and i anticipate that being the objection of my audience.


[quote]Colossians 1:16 For in him were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.[/quote]i don't know if i could prove what aquinas thinks about this verse. right off hand, i wouldn't know how.


[quote]Matthew 11:11 Amen, I say to you, among those born of women there has been none greater than John the Baptist; yet the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

Matthew 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.[/quote]these are probably the most convincing verses in support of differing positions of honor in heaven, and i suppose they could provide context for the more ambiguous verses. anyone have any others?

thank you all for your responses so far!

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited June 22, 2005 by phatcatholic

[phatcatholic]

here's the response that i gave after reviewing all of this:



we seem to have three different discussions being undertaken in this thread:

1. the exact role of Mary and the Holy Spirit in the Incarnation
2. the Queenship of Mary
3. Mary's role in our salvation

i would like to tie all this together. one role mary plays in our salvation is through mothering the messiah. in this way we can say that Mary brought salvation (Jesus = salvation) to the world. this seems to have been acknowledged by the participants in this thread. her second role in our salvation has to do w/ her Queenship in heaven. this seems to have been acknowledged as well. in the Davidic, Israelite kingdom, the Queen of the kingdom was the mother of the King. as the decendent of David, Jesus uses this same model for his kingdom in heaven. so, if Jesus is the King, then Mary is the Queen.

now, where we probably differ is in the implications of this. a few questions we must answer:

[b]1. are there levels of honor for the saints in heaven?[/b] there must be in order for us to say that Mary, a saint in heaven, has a unique position of honor in heaven among the other saints who are there. some scripture to support this claim:[list][b]Mat 11:11 [/b] Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. ([b]note:[/b] the statement that a saint can be "least in the kingdom" seems to imply degrees of honor. we also have, in Mat 18, saints who are "greatest" in the kingdom)

[b]Mat 18:4[/b] Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

[b]Mat 16:27 [/b] For the Son of man is to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man for what he has done.

[b]Rom 2:6[/b] For he will render to every man according to his works

[b]2 Cor 5:10 [/b] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive good or evil, according to what he has done in the body.

[b]2 Cor 11:15 [/b] So it is not strange if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[b]Col 1:16 [/b] for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities--all things were created through him and for him. ([b]note:[/b] this verse has been traditionally understood as a hierarchy of the angels in heaven)
[/list]i'm sure there are others i have missed. the point is that, if Jesus rewards us according to our works, and if there are levels of greatness in heaven, then the premise behind mary's position in heaven is a biblical one.

[b]2. What does Mary's position as Queen of Heaven have to do w/ our salvation?[/b] well, b/c of her role on earth and her position in heaven, her prayers hold great favor with the Lord, much like her life did. she intercedes for the people to the King, much like the earthly Israelite queen did. she longs for our salvation and she prays unceasingly for it.

but don't all the saints pray unceasingly for us?

yes, but i say their prayers are different. the saints have particular ways of interceding that is their specialty. the prayers of Joseph "availeth much" whenever he prays for fathers b/c he was the father in the Holy Family and he has an intimate knowledge of the needs of fathers. St Michael the Archangel is a powerful intercessor for us in matters of spiritual warfare b/c he has intimate knowledge regarding battle with the enemy. Mary then is a powerful intercessor when she prays for our salvation, b/c out of all the saints, she was the most intimately connected to our salvation.

so, her prayers for our salvation is a great aid to us. we receive graces from Jesus b/c of these prayers and mercy from him upon our death. that said, it must be noted that the will of the Lord governs all. we should not see Jesus here as succumbing to the will of his mother. instead, we should understand that it is his will to respond to his mother and to heed her intercession. He has made the decision to give her this role and so it is perfectly in line with his will.

this too, however, may seem difficult to understand. but, if you think about it, our prayers on earth work the same way. when we pray for something and we get it, or when someone else prays for us and we get something b/c of their prayers, do we discredit all this as man imposing his will on the Lord? of course not! instead we say that it is God's will that some of the gifts he gives us be contingent upon us first asking for them in faith, love, and humility. when we do this, he answers our prayers.

Mary prays for us and our salvation with a truly profound faith, love, and humility. in response, Jesus answers her prayers too.

if its ok, i would like to bring everyone back to the points i have made here. the third way that mary participates in our salvation is through the perfect union of her suffering to the suffering of Christ on the cross. however, i think that debating this final point would overwhelm this thread, so for now i suggest discussing the implications of her motherhood and her queenship in heaven. i am interested in your comments.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

Edited June 28, 2005 by phatcatholic

[Technicoid]

You might to read Scott Hahn's book [i]Hail, Holy Queen[/i]. One of the traditions he discusses is the role of the Queen Mother in Old Testament tradition. The wife of the king was not the Queen. The mother was, and when people wanted to get things done, who did they go to? The one person who always had the king's ear the Queen Mother. There's only one account I know of where the mother was [i]not[/i] given this place of honor. For more information on this role, see [url="http://www.catholicdoors.com/homilies/2002/020822.htm"]Queenship of Mary[/url].

So her role as intercessor is due to her because of her maternal relationship with Christ.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Technicoid' date='Jun 28 2005, 10:21 AM']For more information on this role, see [url="http://www.catholicdoors.com/homilies/2002/020822.htm"]Queenship of Mary[/url].

So her role as intercessor is due to her because of her maternal relationship with Christ.
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awesome! i don't have that link yet, thanks

[phatcatholic]

i found an intersting Q&A that explains how saints can have different degrees of holiness. i've never heard it explained like this before. what do u guys think?[list][url="http://catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9412qq.asp"][b]Quick Questions[/b][/url]

[b]Q: In a popular Catholic devotion known as "The Litany of Humility," we ask Jesus to grant us the grace to desire "that others should become holier than I, provided that I become as holy as I should." This doesn't seem to make sense. Since we should all avoid sin completely, doesn't this mean we all should become equally holy, making it non-sensical to ask for others to be holier than us?[/b]

[b]A: [/b]The argument confuses two different kinds of holiness: holiness with respect to sin and holiness with respect to good works. With respect to sin, we should all be equally holy because we should never sin (even though we continually do so during this life). With respect to good works, we are not called to be all equally holy, because God has called us to different levels of sacrifice and good works. He has given us different opportunities and gifts for holiness.

Paul indicates that some have been given the gift of celibacy, while others have not (1 Cor. 7:7), and that celibacy is preferable because of the increased opportunities for devotion to God that it offers (1 Cor. 7:36-38). He summarizes by saying, "If anyone thinks that he is not behaving properly toward his betrothed, if his passions are strong, and it has to be, let him do as he wishes: Let them marry--it is no sin. . . . So that he who marries his betrothed does well; and he who refrains from marriage will do better" (1 Cor. 7:36-38).

Therefore, while we all are called not to sin (which a person who marries would not be doing), some of us are given the opportunity to do even better than not sinning (by not marrying).

The Church teaches that when God justifies us he completely removes all objective sin from our souls and makes us holy by giving us sanctifying grace (Trent, Decree on Original Sin 5). This holiness through sanctifying grace is then increased by doing the good works which justification enables us to accomplish (Trent, Decree on Justification 10, 16, and canons 24 and 32). Our souls are rendered completely holy in justification in that they are completely free of objective sin and are given sanctifying grace, but they are not as holy as they will become through pleasing God by doing good works (Eph. 4:18, Col. 1:9-10).

We might compare the way sanctifying grace makes our souls shine before God with the way a light shines. A light might shed completely white light, yet it might not shine this light as intensely as some other light does. In this way, our justified souls shine purely before God, but may still come to shine more brightly.

When we pray the Litany of Humility, we ask that we will become holy in the sense that we will perform all the good works God has commissioned us to do, and we ask that we will not be envious of others but will want to see them go on to perform even more good works than we do. No contradiction is involved.
[/list]your thoughts?

[Laudate_Dominum]

I'm too tired to read the whole answer given, but my first thought upon reading the question was something like this:

Holiness is ultimately our degree of transformation in God (theosis to use one of Apotheoun's favourite words).
It can't be measured by what we do or don't do, it's more about how much we love and the quality of that love (which relates to what we do or don't do of course). And God has created us all unique. We are perfect when we are image God perfectly according to God's vision of who we are to be. This is not the same for everyone and holiness ought not be compared ultimately.

[StColette]

How in the world did I miss this thread ? lol

I'm still half asleep so I really can't give my answer yet