How Would You Answer This Question?

[phatcatholic]

[b]Question:[/b] "How does Mary play any part in our redemption other than giving birth to our Savior?"

the problem i'm having is that i know the answer, its just that i'm having trouble presenting it in a way that a protestant will understand w/o watering it down. i'm thinking of two ways to answer the question:

[b]1. [/b]through the perfect union of her suffering w/ the suffering of Jesus on the cross
[b]2. [/b]her perpetual intercession in heaven

also, i have a few questions too. [b]as for #1[/b], my understanding is that we are to see this uniting of mary's suffering to that of Jesus as more than what Paul does, when he "makes up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ." i take Paul to mean here that by giving up his suffering he helps to distribute or apply the merits of Christ's suffering on the cross to the Church. how would we describe mary's role, if it is greater than what paul is doing? Fr. Most says that she actually helped pay the price of man's sin, not that Jesus needed help, but that he willed to reverse sin in the same way in which it was introduced into the world: through a couple, a primary and a secondary mediator. Eve helped Adam corrupt man. the New Eve helps the New Adam save it.

what do you say?

[b]as for #2[/b], in what way are we to understand mary's intercession as unique or different from the intercession of the other saints in heaven? it seems incorrect to say that her intercession is "more effective." what do you say?

how else would you answer the original question?

thank you all for your help.

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[Fides_et_Ratio]

Mary did not just "give birth" to Christ. This is my biggest Marian issue with Protestants... to say it like that makes God seem a utilitarian. God didn't just "use" Mary as a birth machine so He could get Redemption over with. God [i]chose [/i]Mary to be a [b]MOTHER [/b]to the Savior. Mary is the [i]mother [/i]of Jesus, not His birth machine. Mothers do FAR MORE than merely give birth.... (just let that sink in a bit)...

and now... think of Christ at the Cross, and indeed the entire trial and crucifixion. Mary never stood up and demanded protection for her Son, never stood in the way (I like to think of the way Mel Gibson portrayed this in the passion)... she watches, she cries, she prays, but above all... she let's it happen. She gives up her RIGHT as a mother to protect her offspring, her beloved Son, and "positively consents to the immolation" of Him for the Redemption of all humanity.

you're 2 reasons are great, phatcatholic... I just had to bring up the mother aspect, because, at least for me, and when I explained that to a friend... it made a huge difference. We see God as a loving God, not a dictator who forces people to give birth that His will might be accomplished.

as to #2... perhaps say Mary's intercession is more "powerful"/prominent. why? because the "prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (james 5:16)--since we profess Mary to be FULL of grace in a most perfect way, we must also say that Mary is rather righteous... you could also play into the Queen Mother tradition a little bit and perhaps develop a comment along the lines of Mary's motherhood giving her prayers an added intimacy, etc.

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='Fides_et_Ratio' date='Jun 20 2005, 02:28 PM']Mary did not just "give birth" to Christ. This is my biggest Marian issue with Protestants... to say it like that makes God seem a utilitarian. God didn't just "use" Mary as a birth machine so He could get Redemption over with. God [i]chose [/i]Mary to be a [b]MOTHER [/b]to the Savior. Mary is the [i]mother [/i]of Jesus, not His birth machine. Mothers do FAR MORE than merely give birth.... (just let that sink in a bit)...[/quote]
oh, i agree! when i answer this person's question, i'm going to make sure that he does not minimalize this fact of her giving birth to christ.

[quote]and now... think of Christ at the Cross, and indeed the entire trial and crucifixion. Mary never stood up and demanded protection for her Son, never stood in the way (I like to think of the way Mel Gibson portrayed this in the passion)... she watches, she cries, she prays, but above all... she let's it happen. She gives up her RIGHT as a mother to protect her offspring, her beloved Son, and "positively consents to the immolation" of Him for the Redemption of all humanity.[/quote]
where did you get those words: "positively consents to the immolation" ?

[quote]you're 2 reasons are great, phatcatholic... I just had to bring up the mother aspect, because, at least for me, and when I explained that to a friend... it made a huge difference. We see God as a loving God, not a dictator who forces people to give birth that His will might be accomplished.[/quote]
yes, very true. i'll probably speak breifly on this. i want to avoid getting into a debate on free will and predetermination.

[quote]as to #2... perhaps say Mary's intercession is more "powerful"/prominent. why? because the "prayer of a righteous man availeth much" (james 5:16)--since we profess Mary to be FULL of grace in a most perfect way, we must also say that Mary is rather righteous... you could also play into the Queen Mother tradition a little bit and perhaps  develop a comment along the lines of Mary's motherhood giving her prayers an added intimacy, etc.[right][snapback]617055[/snapback][/right][/quote]
this is what i'm mulling over right now. aren't all the saints equally righteous in heaven? are there degrees of righteousness in heaven? also, how does one present the uniqueness of her intercession in heaven when faced w/ the fact that [i][b]all [/b][/i]the saints are praying for us? maybe its how often they pray? do the saints pray for us unceasingly, like mary, or only when we ask them to? i know that mary's intercession in heaven is unique, but i'm at a lost to explain how.

odds are i'm making this much more difficult then it needs to be.......

your thoughts?

pax christi,
phatcatholic

[journeyman]

as to #2

Does Mary's involvement at the beginning of Jesus's public ministry carry any weight here? At the wedding in Cana, she asked Him to intervene. (this sort of ties in with Fides comments about motherhood - as an obedient - or at least dutiful - son, He performed His first public miracle at her request)

I don't think it would be right to say her intercession is more effective than that of any other saint, that smacks too much of human "influence peddling." It would be reasonable for one of us flawed humans to hope that since He deferred to his mother during his life (promise after being found at the temple, at Cana) He might continue to do so today.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:21 PM']this is what i'm mulling over right now. aren't all the saints equally righteous in heaven? are there degrees of righteousness in heaven? also, how does one present the uniqueness of her intercession in heaven when faced w/ the fact that [i][b]all [/b][/i]the saints are praying for us? maybe its how often they pray? do the saints pray for us unceasingly, like mary, or only when we ask them to? i know that mary's intercession in heaven is unique, but i'm at a lost to explain how.

odds are i'm making this much more difficult then it needs to be.......

your thoughts?

pax christi,
phatcatholic
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She's Our Lord's Mother. Does that mean something special when she intercedes on our behelf?

[phatcatholic]

i just don't know if its safe to say that one saint's prayers are more effective than another one's........

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote]Through her mediation, subordinate to that of the Redeemer, [b]Mary contributes in a special way[/b] to the union of the pilgrim Church one with with the eschatological and heavenly reality of the Communion of Saints, since she has already been "assumed into heaven."
[i]Redemptoris Mater[/i][/quote]
[quote]Let the entire body of the faithful pour forth persevering prayer to the Mother of God and Mother of mankind. Let them implore that she who aided the beginning of the Church by her prayers may now, [b]exalted as she is in heaven above all the saints and angels[/b], intercede with her Son in the fellowship of all the saints.
[u]Dogmatic Constitution on the Church[/u], [i]Lumen Gentium[/i][/quote]
[quote]It is God's will that inferior beings should be helped by all those that are above them, wherefore we ought to pray not only to the higher but also to the lower saints; else we should have to implore the mercy of God alone. Nevertheless it happens sometime that prayers addressed to a saint of lower degree are more efficacious, either because he is implored with greater devotion, or because God wishes to make known his sanctity.
[b]Summa Theologica[/b]
Context: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/308311.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/308311.htm[/url][/quote]
[quote]Although the greater saints are more acceptable to God than the lesser, it is sometimes profitable to pray to the lesser; and this for five reasons. First, because sometimes one has greater devotion for a lesser saint than for a greater, and the effect of prayer depends very much on one's devotion. Secondly, in order to avoid tediousness, for continual attention to one thing makes a person weary; whereas by praying to different saints, the fervor of our devotion is aroused anew as it were. Thirdly, because it is granted to some saints to exercise their patronage in certain special cases, for instance to Saint Anthony against the fire of hell. Fourthly, that due honor be given by us to all. Fifthly, because the prayers of several sometimes obtain that which would not have been obtained by the prayers of one.
[b]Summa Theologica[/b]
Context: [url="http://www.newadvent.org/summa/507202.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/summa/507202.htm[/url][/quote]
Interesting how he brings up the point that certain Saints (patron saints) are more efficacious for different intentions. Perhaps the Mother of our Lord is a unique Patroness, enveloping [i]all[/i] the intentions of the Father's children.

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:21 PM']where did you get those words: "positively consents to the immolation" ?[/quote]
Sorry, I remembered the quote wrong, it's actually "LOVINGLY consented to the immolation" and it's from V2's "Lumen Gentium" # 58:
"[i]58. In the public life of Jesus, Mary makes significant appearances. This is so even at the very beginning, when at the marriage feast of Cana, moved with pity, she brought about by her intercession the beginning of miracles of Jesus the Messiah.(291) In the course of her Son's preaching she received the words whereby in extolling a kingdom beyond the calculations and bonds of flesh and blood, He declared blessed(292) those who heard and kept the word of God, as she was faithfully doing.(293) After this manner the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in her union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan,(294) grieving exceedingly with her only begotten Son, uniting herself with a maternal heart with His sacrifice, [b]and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this Victim which she herself had brought forth[/b]. Finally, she was given by the same Christ Jesus dying on the cross as a mother to His disciple with these words: "Woman, behold thy son".(295) (11*)"[/i]

[quote]this is what i'm mulling over right now. aren't all the saints equally righteous in heaven? are there degrees of righteousness in heaven? [/quote]
There are degrees of blessedness/vision of the Beatific Vision, are there not? Our righteousness is determined by our faith in our actions. All merit is not equal... we are rewarded according to our deeds (insert Scripture references that I'm too lazy to look up).

[quote]also, how does one present the uniqueness of her intercession in heaven when faced w/ the fact that [i][b]all [/b][/i]the saints are praying for us? maybe its how often they pray? do the saints pray for us unceasingly, like mary, or only when we ask them to? i know that mary's intercession in heaven is unique, but i'm at a lost to explain how.[/quote]
they all pray unceasingly (1 Thessalonians 5:17)... but the powerful efficacy of them depends upon righteousness (see above). Of course they are all indeed effacious, but according to the strength and power of their prayer (which for any of the Saints in Heaven) far exceeds those of us still confined to the earth.

[quote]odds are i'm making this much more difficult then it needs to be.......

your thoughts?
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you're making it much more difficult for me! jk! I actually like discussing/thinking about it.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

More Patristic commentary:
[quote]"O noble Virgin, [b]truly you are greater than any other greatness[/b]. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides."
Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106[/quote][quote]"She is all beautiful, all near to God. For [b]she, surpassing the cherubim. Exalted beyond the seraphim, is placed near to God[/b]."
John of Damascene, Homily on the Nativity,9(ante AD 749),in MCF,403[/quote]
[quote]"Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul's affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, [b]can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance[/b]"
Ambrose Autpert, Assumption of the Virgin, (ante AD 778)PL 39:2134,in THEO,188[/quote]

Source: [url="http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary.htm"]http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/mary.htm[/url]

Edited June 21, 2005 by thedude

[Cure of Ars]

[quote]Paul does, when he "makes up for what is lacking in the sufferings of Christ." i take Paul to mean here that by giving up his suffering he helps to distribute or apply the merits of Christ's suffering on the cross to the Church.[/quote]

I think that it is saying more than just distributing but actually participating in the suffering and death of Christ. (Also see 1 Cor 10:16) We have a mystical union with Christ and our suffering when offered to him becomes his suffering.


Quick random quotes that are relevant

Also see 1 Cor 3:9 “we are God’s Co-workers”

if so be that [u]we suffer with [him][/u], that we may be also glorified together. (Romans 8:17)

And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity [u]shall cover the multitude of sins[/u]. 1Pe 4:8

Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin; 1Pe 4:1

And also see Luke 2:35

The bottom line is that Mary had a special relationship with Jesus. A relationship that none of us can say we have. If Jesus is going to follow his own ten commandments he is going to give her honor, more than others. If Jesus is our king like David then Mary is our queen. The job of the queen is to intercede to the king.


Really how all this works is a mystery. You are not going to be able to explain it very well because it is beyond human understanding. And if God and his ways were not beyond us and we could figure it all out then I would say that our faith was man made. We have a awesome and mysterious God.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

I thought Paul was refering to Christ's redemption on the cross not being sufficient to save everyone, but only to offer salvation to all with the hopes that they would accept it and follow His teachings. Paul's suffering then was just doing "his part" to cooperate with this grace and get to Heaven.

Am I missing something fundamental here?

[phatcatholic]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 21 2005, 09:26 AM']I thought Paul was refering to Christ's redemption on the cross not being sufficient to save everyone, but only to offer salvation to all with the hopes that they would accept it and follow His teachings.  Paul's suffering then was just doing "his part" to cooperate with this grace and get to Heaven.

Am I missing something fundamental here?
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most definitely! christ's redemption was [i][b]sufficient[/b][/i] for everyone, as in, it has the potential to save every single human being. but, it is not [i][b]efficacious[/b][/i] for everyone, as in, it does not ultimately effect the salvation of every person, b/c our salvation also depends on our will. if his redemption was efficacious for every man, there would be no hell.

this is probably what you meant, you just used incorrect terminology.

i have always taken paul's words to mean the distribution of the merits of christ's suffering to the body b/c that is essentially what is "lacking" in jesus' suffering. he payed the price in full, no doubt about that. but, there still needs to be a way to distribute the merits of this act to the faithful.

i think some would say that what separate's mary from paul is that paul distributes the merits of christ's suffering, whereas mary actually helped jesus pay the price for man's sin. what do you all think about this statement?

[phatcatholic]

oh, i almost forgot, if anyone has them, i need the scripture verses that support degrees of righteousness in heaven, or levels of honor in heaven. thanks :thumb:

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:14 PM']most definitely! christ's redemption was [i][b]sufficient[/b][/i] for everyone, as in, it has the potential to save every single human being. but, it is not [i][b]efficacious[/b][/i] for everyone, as in, it does not ultimately effect the salvation of every person, b/c our salvation also depends on our will. if his redemption was efficacious for every man, there would be no hell.

this is probably what you meant, you just used incorrect terminology.

i have always taken paul's words to mean the distribution of the merits of christ's suffering to the body b/c that is essentially what is "lacking" in jesus' suffering. he payed the price in full, no doubt about that. but, there still needs to be a way to distribute the merits of this act to the faithful.

i think some would say that what separate's mary from paul is that paul distributes the merits of christ's suffering, whereas mary actually helped jesus pay the price for man's sin. what do you all think about this statement?
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By "distributing the merits of christ's suffering" do you mean his work of spreading the Gospel?

[Fides_et_Ratio]

[quote name='phatcatholic' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:15 PM']oh, i almost forgot, if anyone has them, i need the scripture verses that support degrees of righteousness in heaven, or levels of honor in heaven. thanks :thumb:
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I read an article a while back, I think that I will need to look up...

other than that, these might be of use:

Romans 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his works.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he hath done, whether it be good or evil.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers be transformed as the ministers of justice, whose end shall be according to their works.

etc., etc.
If our end corresponds to our deeds (/works)--that is, we are judged and rewarded/punished accordingly, than a person who did greater things will receive a greater reward.