Assent and Dissent in Catholicism

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:57 AM']

On a personnal level, my father always spoke out openly against homosexulaity, birth control, and EXPECIALLY ABORTIONS.  To his view, a doctor taking ANY part towards an abortion was simply NOT A DOCTOR, since he betrayed the human life of an unborn child.  A doctor cannot be a doctor without respecting human life.
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RESPONSE:

I find myself in agreement with much of what you write, Didacus.

But is it consistent to claim prohibiting the use of condoms in cases when the infected individual will not remain abstinent thereby virtually assuring that his wife will develop AIDS and their children will be affected and die from this disorder consistent with any ethic of life?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='thedude' date='Jun 20 2005, 09:36 AM']What is the point of this thread?
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RESPONSE:

Tracing the history of assent and dissent in Catholicism.

I started with a present day Catholic News Service Report for openers.

[LittleLes]

The Catholic Church is not about what it's people believe - it's about what Jesus taught.
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RESPONSE:

Not necessarily. Its about what the Church tells you you must believe about what Jesus taught. There is sometimes a significance difference.

[Didacus]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 20 2005, 12:21 PM']RESPONSE:

Or could it mean that they recognize that the Church's teachings on these matters are in error and have elected to follow their own consciences rather than assent to error??


[/quote]

Not at all. A Catholic doctor prescribing birth control and who is faithful to the church will accept that in effect, that he is taking part of something immoral. However, being faced with the realities of the world and being bound by his profession, a doctor must respect the lifestyle of his patient - even if this lifestyle is sinful. (the doctor is at the service of the patient, and not vice versa, keep in mind that in a doctor-patient relationship, ultimately the patient is the one calling the shots, not the doctor. The doctor only recommends medication, presciptions, wether or not an operation should be considered - but the patient chooses the remedy. If a doctor advises against birth control, but the patient chooses to nonetheless, then the doctor is bound by his profession to ablige regardless of his religious beliefs)

A catholic doctor prescribing birth control is choosing the lesser of two evils, the greater evil being not treating his patient.

Is this right? Of course not. The lesser of any evil should not be and option.

Now, who wants to cast the first stone? I see dUst there with a rock in his hands. God Conquers is ready to take a swing am I right? Truth is, right and wrong wihtin this human world is not always as simple as a rule book.

I am not trying to justify prescribing birth control, just trying to explain why it happens and that doctors should not necessarily be stoned to death becasue of thier decision in prescribing birth control.

Edited June 20, 2005 by Didacus

[scardella]

Hippocratic Oath

"Modern Version"
[quote]I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

[b]I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required[/b], avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. [b]Above all, I must not play at God[/b].

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

[b]I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.[/b]

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.[/quote]

"Classical Version"
[quote]I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfil according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art - if they desire to learn it - without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

[b]I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.[/b]

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

[b]Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice[/b], of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfil this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.[/quote]

Emphases mine. It would seem that if the patient wanted something contrary to their good or the good of another, for the doctor to act according to the patient's wishes would be against the Hippocratic oath that the doctors take. Edited June 20, 2005 by scardella

[Socrates]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 20 2005, 12:21 PM']RESPONSE:

Or could it mean that they recognize that the Church's teachings on these matters are in error and have elected to follow their own consciences rather than assent to error??
[/quote]

What are you trying to prove here, LittleLes? That the Church's teachings are wrong because they are unpopular? All you've proven is that the Truth of Catholic teaching does not depend on popular opinion. You yourself have admitted that majority vote does not determine truth.

[quote]And can you quote me the biblical teaching against birth conntrol and the use of condoms to limit the spread of AIDs?
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Well, there's Genesis 38:6-10 to start. But why are you playing Sola Scriptura Biblical Fundamentalist all of a sudden? You've made it quite clear elsewhere that you don't believe the Bible!

You have no consistant principles - you merely use whatever you think happens to be convenient at the moment to attack the Church.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 20 2005, 01:24 PM']RESPONSE:

Are you claiming that 90% of Catholic doctors don't practice their faith?

Are Phatmass posters doctors? I suspected some may be members of Opus Dei from the mindset of their answers, but being physicians never occurred to me?
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LittleLes,

What is the difference between the "mindset" of a member of Opus Dei and the "mindset" of a faithful Catholic?

Just so we've got more than just the clip from LittleLes, here's the article link (interesting comments at the bottom of the link):
[url="http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=36782"]http://www.cwnews.com/news/viewstory.cfm?recnum=36782[/url]

Also, the press release from the survey company (HCD Research) can be found here:
[url="http://hcdi.net/news/PressRelease.cfm?URL=CatholicPhysiciansViews.cfm"]http://hcdi.net/news/PressRelease.cfm?URL=...iciansViews.cfm[/url]

Here are some facts about the HCD survey:
1) 1,536 doctors surveyed.
2) Working from some statistics from another HCD survey, approximately 20% (~303 doctors) were Catholic.
3) Approximately 42% of the Catholic doctors (~126 doctors) said that they attended mass each week. So, at least 58% are "not practicing their faith" and are committing a grave sin (i.e. breaking the first commandment).

The main challenge for doctors is that the consequence of "being a faithful Catholic" by refusing to prescribe birth control may be the lose of their job. It's not easy to stand on principles when you are subject to such consequences.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 20 2005, 01:32 PM']RESPONSE:

Tracing the history of assent and dissent in Catholicism.

I started with a present day Catholic News Service Report for openers.
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Try this for starters:
[url="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0895554755/qid=1119294861/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/102-0644906-5063331?v=glance&s=books&n=507846"]Great Heresies by Hilaire Belloc[/url]

[Didacus]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jun 20 2005, 02:12 PM']

The main challenge for doctors is that the consequence of "being a faithful Catholic" by refusing to prescribe birth control may be the lose of their job.  It's not easy to stand on principles when you are subject to such consequences.
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it is very easy to set the blame on doctors who prescribe birth control.

But what about the people asking for it? What about those catholics? What if they are not catholic?

Is the conclusion for catholic doctors to only administer health care to catholics? This obviously is not acceptabl as it would be uncharitable.

What about the parents who raised the people asking for contraception? Would they not be even more to blame than the doctors?

Doctors make life and death decisions almost every day. It is difficult to described the sometimes overbearing moral difficulties they undertake. Have you ever gone to a hospital where a 35 year father of 4 children is under your charge and dying, and having to face his wife and family and finally admit to them there is nothing more you can do? Have you ever gotten a phone call at 3 am in the evening, calling you to an emergency room where one of your 8 year old patients was in an accident and looks to be crippled or worse and the parents had specifically called you because YOU are the one they trust with the life of their child? Have you made repeated house calls to elderly people who could not make it to your office as a favor - because they did not want to go to a hospital, they want to die at home. Have you ever tried to care for an atheist who is screaming obscenities at you because they don't believe in God and hope you can save them? Have you had to testify in court on behalf of the crown because one of you 13 year old patients had been raped and murdered the summer before?

These are only [b]some[/b] of the situations my father faced in his practice, TRUE STORIES. The man was dedicated like no other doctor in the region, sacrificed his own time on a daily basis, had the biggest practise my home town (Timmins - 50 000 population) had ever witnessed and had people crying in his office when he announced he was getting ready for a semi-retirement because they loved him dearly. MY FATHER was a GREAT MAN and DOCTOR, he still is.

Oh but wait, he might have spoken against contraception, but regardless, he prescribed some. SFD!! Let's excommunicate him! To the stake and let the little B***** fry as he deserves!

That's fine...



Truth is, sincere doctors, have upon their shoulders so much more than than what is singled out in this thread. And sincere doctors, who truly aim to help their patients rather than make a buck, do succeed in spreading much good in the world. My father did, so please forgive him this one shortcoming (just about the only one you'll find in his career I'll wager you that!). He was a good doctor, but not a saint.

I cannot say that it is rigthcheous for a doctor to prescribe birth control, but I can say, that with everything a doctor must deal with in his career, I would definately trust his better judgement and conscience. People trust them with their lives, every day.

They should be entitled to govern, within certain limits according to their conscience, their own pratice without fear of prejudice, or judgement other than God Himself. I believe that birth control should fall in this realm. (I believe that abortion should not, but that would be a debate on itself.)

They do not represent the church, nor have for their calling to preach. They should not be held responsible for the decisions of their patients. They are not [i]above[/i] church teachings.

[Cam42]

[quote name='thedude']What is the point of this thread?[/quote]

[quote name='Socrates']What are you trying to prove here, LittleLes?[/quote]

Don't you people see it? LittleLes responds:
[quote]RESPONSE:

Tracing the history of assent and dissent in Catholicism.

I started with a present day Catholic News Service Report for openers.[/quote]

This is a smoke screen......As one who has deciphered just what LittleLes is really all about? Trolling......that is what LittleLes is really all about.

He has no point, except to rankle the people who post here and are after legitimate debate......mark my words, slavery, infallibility, and all the rest of his tripe will show up.

This thread is nothing more than a stage for him to openly dissent and bait us into a round about, in order to get us to state something contrary, so he can say:

"See, I was right..."

Thing is.....LittleLes, you are not right.

So, what is the point of this thread? TROLLING......

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 20 2005, 08:03 AM']In the present, this from  Catholic World News:

"According to the survey, 87 percent of Catholic doctors said they would "prescribe birth control pills to any adult patients that request them and for whom they are medically appropriate." Of the doctors who were surveyed, 93 percent said they agreed.

Also, 90 percent of the Catholic doctors surveyed support the promotion and use of condoms to protect against HIV-AIDS in developing countries. More than any other Christian church or ecclesial community, 49 percent of Catholic physicians supported the statement, "Do you feel homosexuality is morally acceptable as a lifestyle choice?"

Any evidence countering these statistics?

LittleLes
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So this debate is about the statistics from some survey, right? Counter the survey. That is all you are asking us to do. The answer is that we cannot counter the survey. However, this poll, much like any poll, doesn't accurately reflect the truth (If you want to see a poll that does not reflect truth data, look only at exit polls from last years presidential election).

Basically, you are trolling here. You have not proposed a real argument to debate. All you have asked us to do is to counter the statistics. What is wrong or right is not determined by what a sample of Catholic doctors say. God Himself is the ultimate lawgiver and He has loaned over His keys to the the chair of St. Peter for some 2000 years now and no survey will change that.

All these statistics prove is that there are many doctors in need of prayer. If you propose a real debate topic maybe there can be a debate, but asking us to "counter statistics" and putting the emphasis on the whole debate about Catholic morality is asking us to concede a larger argument by you winning this smaller insignficant argument. But anything in order for you to win a debate, right?

[jezic]

maybe this might work, just don't respond at all.

Were it the truth, there might be an answer but it is not so just don't answer at all

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Didacus' date='Jun 20 2005, 09:54 AM']
What if the patient was not catholic or even christian? Should the doctor deny birth control then? Should the doctor deny treament?


RESPONSE:

So you are saying that the Catholic Church's teaching on birth control and the use of condoms really only applies to Catholics?

[LittleLes]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 20 2005, 01:21 PM']What are you trying to prove here, LittleLes?  That the Church's teachings are wrong because they are unpopular?  All you've proven is that the Truth of Catholic teaching does not depend on popular opinion.  You yourself have admitted that majority vote does not determine truth.
Well, there's Genesis 38:6-10 to start.  But why are you playing Sola Scriptura Biblical Fundamentalist all of a sudden?  You've made it quite clear elsewhere that you don't believe the Bible!

You have no consistant principles - you merely use whatever you think happens to be convenient at the moment to attack the Church.
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RESPONSE:

(1) No. Some of the Church's teachings are wrong because they are in error in themselves. What I demonstrating here, is, if Catholic World News has run an accurate survey, the vast majority of Catholic physicians realize this and are evidently acting on their conscience rather than assenting to error.

(2) Genesis 38:6-10:

"Judah got a wife named Tamar for his first-born, Er. But Er, Judah's first-born, greatly offended the LORD; so the LORD took his life. Then Judah said to Onan, "Unite with your brother's widow, in fulfillment of your duty as brother-in-law, and thus preserve your brother's line." Onan, however, knew that the descendants would not be counted as his; so whenever he had relations with his brother's widow, he wasted his seed on the ground, to avoid contributing offspring for his brother. What he did greatly offended the LORD, and the LORD took his life too. "

This passage is not dealing with the issue of birth control but with Onan's failure to follow Mosaic Law and raise male children in the brother's line , so that the brother's property would be retained by his family. Women could not inherit property and, in this case, the brother's property would go to Onan, if he did not produce a male heir via his borther's wife. He refused to, so got zapped too! :

The claim I was addressing is:

"The Catholic Church is not about what it's people believe - it's about what Jesus taught."

What I asked was if Jesus had ever taught anything about birth control or the use of condoms to prevent AIDs. I don't think that he did. In fact, that every sexual act has to be open to creation does not seem to have been his teaching at all. This church teaching seems to have started around the fourth century with Augustine, Jerome, and company.

LittleLes

[LittleLes]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jun 20 2005, 04:17 PM']So this debate is about the statistics from some survey, right?  Counter the survey.  That is all you are asking us to do.  The answer is that we cannot counter the survey.  However, this poll, much like any poll, doesn't accurately reflect the truth (If you want to see a poll that does not reflect truth data, look only at exit polls from last years presidential election).

Basically, you are trolling here.  You have not proposed a real argument to debate.  All you have asked us to do is to counter the statistics.  What is wrong or right is not determined by what a sample of Catholic doctors say.  God Himself is the ultimate lawgiver and He has loaned over His keys to the the chair of St. Peter for some 2000 years now and no survey will change that.

All these statistics prove is that there are many doctors in need of prayer.  If you propose a real debate topic maybe there can be a debate, but asking us to "counter statistics" and putting the emphasis on the whole debate about Catholic morality is asking us to concede a larger argument by you winning this smaller insignficant argument.  But anything in order for you to win a debate, right?
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RESPONSE:

(1) I agree that for the results of this survey, we are relying on the integrity of the Catholic News Service. But their result might be termed a "declaration against interest" and therefore seems creditable.

(2) I don't think that God lent his keys to the chair of Saint Peter. That was an embellishment which either Matthew or one of the later copyist added to the story of Peter's Confession of Faith (Matt 16). Please note that Mark, which Matthew used as a source, and Luke related this event with no reference to founding a church or Peterine primacy. John disputes the part about when Peter received his name and whether God, or Peter's brother, Andrew, revealed that Jesus was the Messiah.

(3) At present I am introducing evidence of dissent, past and present, with Catholic teachings. But then we'll take a look at how the Church establishes her "authority."