Swim wear

[Nicole8223]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:14 PM']Well I thought it was funny.
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me too!

[Q the Ninja]

Maybe it shouldn't be arousing, but I've been raised in a culture where arousing images have become frequent and it's everything I can do not to fight them. Yes, it's true that originally everyone was naked and nakedness can be good in art, but today that doesn't go as well. During the Renaissance there was a different outlook towards the body, but it still remains that not all nudity was accepted (like I said, they covered everyone up on the Last Judgement).

I only say this because I think that calling people such as me puritan because I care about my purity is sad. I also know that most guys around me find it arousing (this is from when I was in high school up to now, and we still agree on clothes in college, where most people I know are strong Christians and agree on lust) when a girl wears too little. It's not so much that it's a bad thing, but more that guys will lust or at least be tempted to lust.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

The funny thing is that everyone accuses the religious for wanting to always totally cover up, but it's the secular world's turning of the body into an object that has made it where totally covering up is the only way to preserve modesty. Even then people can still lust after the covered people.

However, I wouldn't let it totally rule over me. I can't stand to wear a shirt while swimming. It's not a modesty issue, rather a comfort issue. I feel like a wet midget is trying to bring me down when I wear a shirt swimming. I know girls who wear two-piece swimsuits because the one-piece suits are just uncomfortable or are awkward to wear. They don't pick their swimwear to entice men to lust. And we can't criticize people for wanting to look pretty or beautiful either, provided it's not done for scandalous intent.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 20 2005, 11:52 PM']I want to make a point which I think is missing from this discussion a person ( even us guys) can or at least should be able to look at a member of the other gender in a bathing suit--even a bikini-- and apreciate that they are attractive, and perhaps even bueatiful/handsome and not lust after them. Frankly you should even be able to do that to someone who is naked. Lust is a personal failure not the Failure on the part of the Lusted a fter. Now some one is immodest when they intentionally attempt to dress in a provacative manner, intending to create a lustful reaction in people.
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I agree with you to an extent. We should be able to look at people who are scantily dressed and still find the beauty without lust. However, the practicality of a bikini is next to nothing. A bikini is not good for swimming really but for walking about looking 'pretty' and sun bathing. If girls want to stand in the pool and glide gently around then they might work as well.

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:08 PM']Modesty is not about the end result of provoking lust, but about being respectful about your body.  Who cares where you live...wrong is wrong....
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amen sista

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:44 PM']The funny thing is that everyone accuses the religious for wanting to always totally cover up, but it's the secular world's turning of the body into an object that has made it where totally covering up is the only way to preserve modesty.  Even then people can still lust after the covered people.

However, I wouldn't let it totally rule over me.  I can't stand to wear a shirt while swimming.  It's not a modesty issue, rather a comfort issue.  I feel like a wet midget is trying to bring me down when I wear a shirt swimming.  I know girls who wear two-piece swimsuits because the one-piece suits are just uncomfortable or are awkward to wear.  They don't pick their swimwear to entice men to lust.  And we can't criticize people for wanting to look pretty or beautiful either, provided it's not done for scandalous intent.
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The last sentence of your response really struck me, and not in a good way. We can't criticize people for wanting to look pretty? Since when is wearing close to nothing a standard for beauty? Since when is modesty something that makes you less attractive than a thread of cloth on your bottom and across your chest? I find it rather shocking that you would say that girls who dress in next to nothing to go to the swimming pool or beach are the ones who want to look pretty and beautiful and that the way they achieve this is by putting on bikinis and other forms of next to nothing swimwear. I am taken back to say the least.

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jun 21 2005, 01:16 PM']The last sentence of your response really struck me, and not in a good way. We can't criticize people for wanting to look pretty? Since when is wearing close to nothing a standard for beauty? Since when is modesty something that makes you less attractive than a thread of cloth on your bottom and across your chest? I find it rather shocking that you would say that girls who dress in next to nothing to go to the swimming pool or beach are the ones who want to look pretty and beautiful and that the way they achieve this is by putting on bikinis and other forms of next to nothing swimwear. I am taken back to say the least.
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I believe she is saying that a two piece bathing suite is not intrinsically immodest, and she was in no way attempting to insinuate that people who wear one-piece/tankinis/etc somehow look less pretty.

If I have understood her correctly, she is mearly saying that there would be nothing wrong with a girl buying and wearing a two piece bathing suite provided she did so simply because she thought she looked better in it than she would in other types of swimwear, and provided that her intent in buying/wearing the swimsuit was never to draw lustful gazes from members of the opposite sex.

[scardella]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jun 21 2005, 12:20 PM']Maybe it shouldn't be arousing, but I've been raised in a culture where arousing images have become frequent and it's everything I can do not to fight them.  Yes, it's true that originally everyone was naked and nakedness can be good in art, but today that doesn't go as well.  During the Renaissance there was a different outlook towards the body, but it still remains that not all nudity was accepted (like I said, they covered everyone up on the Last Judgement).

I only say this because I think that calling people such as me puritan because I care about my purity is sad.  I also know that most guys around me find it arousing (this is from when I was in high school up to now, and we still agree on clothes in college, where most people I know are strong Christians and agree on lust) when a girl wears too little.  It's not so much that it's a bad thing, but more that guys will lust or at least be tempted to lust.
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I don't think anyone was intending to call you a Puritan. I was calling the culture Puritan, or at least post-Puritan.

This brings up an interesting question (I may have mentioned it before, and it seems relevant to the discussion)

"Is there an objective modesty, or is it purely on a culture-by-culture (plus contextual) basis?"

[Don John of Austria]

Almost all cultures wear loin coverings even the most primative of peoples I think that there is something inherently private about the loin, however, there are contexts where it is not immodest to show that area.

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='hugheyforlife' date='Jun 21 2005, 01:16 PM']The last sentence of your response really struck me, and not in a good way. We can't criticize people for wanting to look pretty? Since when is wearing close to nothing a standard for beauty? Since when is modesty something that makes you less attractive than a thread of cloth on your bottom and across your chest? I find it rather shocking that you would say that girls who dress in next to nothing to go to the swimming pool or beach are the ones who want to look pretty and beautiful and that the way they achieve this is by putting on bikinis and other forms of next to nothing swimwear. I am taken back to say the least.
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I probably should have separated my final sentence from the paragraph preceding it. My statement was meant to be directed toward those who say that if the way you look makes others lust then you should do something to your appearance to keep that from happening. That doesn't sound like Christianity at all and really sounds more like Islam. I'm just saying that a girl should be able to pick a swimsuit that makes her look beautiful as long as it's not for the intent of enticing lustful thoughts or actions in others. I'm not saying it's acceptable or even beautiful for women to wear thong bikinis at beaches. Instead, some here argue that women wearing anything less than a one piece, or even a t-shirt, is a mortal sin. Modesty isn't determined by how much cloth there is, but by how one's outward appearance preserves his or her dignity. There are some two-piece swimsuits that are still modest and are cute as well. Also, a lot of the really modest swimwear is plain ridiculous looking. Not all of it, but a lot of it.

And for Jeff, I'm a dude.

[Guest JeffCR07]

hahaha, whoah, my bad.

A friend of mine named kathy has a screen name that begins k4th, so I must have made the assumption subconsciously.

Then again, we know what they say about ppl who assume

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='JeffCR07' date='Jun 21 2005, 01:38 PM']Then again, we know what they say about ppl who assume 
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No, what do they say?

[Socrates]

The fact is that a scantily clad or nude attractive woman will tend to provoke a man to lust, no matter how pure her intentions are. True, men should try not to look at them lustfully, but this is simple biology.
A nubile girl in a bikini will tend to provoke lust whether she dresses in such a way to seduce men or to just "look pretty."
I think most girls underestimate the male sex drive.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 21 2005, 01:44 PM']The fact is that a scantily clad or nude attractive woman will tend to provoke a man to lust, no matter how pure her intentions are.  True, men should try not to look at them lustfully, but this is simple biology.
A nubile girl in a bikini will tend to provoke lust whether she dresses in such a way to seduce men or to just "look pretty."
I think most girls underestimate the male sex drive.
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I thnk you need to seperate the sex drive from lust, one can look ata pretty girl and appreciate that she is pretty, or think "wow that girl is beautiful/hot/smoken/fine./phat/ whatever and not think " boy I'd like to 'insert bad 70's music here' " ( for those that get that you have been bad bad boy's in the past).

[1337 k4th0l1x0r]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:05 PM']I thnk you need to seperate the sex drive from lust, one can look ata pretty girl and appreciate that she is pretty, or think "wow that girl is beautiful/hot/smoken/fine./phat/ whatever and not think " boy I'd like to  'insert bad 70's music here' " ( for those that get that you have been bad bad boy's in the past).
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I'd like to burn baby burn... disco inferno???

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='1337 k4th0l1x0r' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:08 PM']I'd like to burn baby burn... disco inferno???
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No, no, really bad 70's music somthng like boow chink a boow boow, ( sound it out)

[Socrates]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 21 2005, 02:05 PM']I thnk you need to seperate the sex drive from lust, one can look ata pretty girl and appreciate that she is pretty, or think "wow that girl is beautiful/hot/smoken/fine./phat/ whatever and not think " boy I'd like to  'insert bad 70's music here' " ( for those that get that you have been bad bad boy's in the past).
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I was being a little loose with the terms, using lust to mean arousal, etc. A boy/man may or may not react sinfully/lustfully to a scantily clad attractive woman, but the woman is (whether she purposefully intends to or not) being a source of temptation by dressing in this way. That was my point. Modesty in dress is a virtue. Christians should not needlessly provide sources of temptation.

This is not to say that women must worry excessively about their clothes provoking lust, but they should not dress provocatively in public, and excuse themselves by putting all blame on the men for whatever lust they may provoke. ("Men just need to learn to control themselves!")

Edited June 21, 2005 by Socrates