Ex Cathedra

[Aloysius]

War is a moral issue. The Holy Father can teach infallibly about war.

He cannot teach infallibly about whether Saddam Hussein was a threat to the United States based on his technological and military capabilities... He cannot teach that there were no WMDs in Iraq... He cannot teach that Saddam Hussein's Iraq did not have all the charecteristics necessary to make a war against them a just war. All of these things are/were debatable based on intelligence reports and information, none of which were matters of faith or morals.

Let us not here debate the answers to any of those things above... the fact is that at the time the Holy Father was talking about this all of that was up in the air... unknown to most people... and the Holy Spirit wasn't guiding the Holy Father into knowing the answer to those things... because none of those things were matters of faith or morals. That's the way it was, and that's why when the Holy Father was speaking on such a current event issue about which neither he nor most of the world knew all the facts about.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jun 16 2005, 09:20 PM']how could the War in Iraq not have anything to do with faith or morals?  To me, it's a very moral issue...just as much of a moral issue as abortion, stem cell research or contraception.  Anything that puts human life in danger seems like a moral issue to me.
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Of course the decision to go to war touches upon moral principles, but the point is that not all of the statements made by the Holy Father are an exercise of his Authentic, Ordinary, or Extraordinary Magisterium.

All Catholics are bound to accept the acts of the Papal Magisterium, either as dogmas to be believed with divine and catholic faith, or as truths to be held definitively, or as acts which require a submission of intellect and will, but the comments made by the previous Pope on the Iraq War were not official acts of his Magisterium, and so no Catholic is obliged to agree with him. As then Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI) said:

[quote name='Letter to the US Bishops on denying pro-abortion Politicians Communion' date=' no. 3']Not all moral issues have the same moral weight as abortion and euthanasia.  For example, if a Catholic were to be at odds with the Holy Father on the application of capital punishment or on the decision to wage war, he would not for that reason be considered unworthy to present himself to receive Holy Communion.  While the Church exhorts civil authorities to seek peace, not war, and to exercise discretion and mercy in imposing punishment on criminals, it may still be permissible to take up arms to repel an aggressor or to have recourse to capital punishment.  There may be a legitimate diversity of opinion even among Catholics about waging war and applying the death penalty, but not however with regard to abortion and euthanasia.[/quote]
Now because the Pope and the U.S. bishops have not declared the Iraq war to be intrinsically immoral, it follows that Catholics are free to support the American and Coalition war effort. It is important that Catholics not confuse the prudential judgments of the Pope with infallible or authoritative acts of his Magisterium.

[Q the Ninja]

It's really been only used twice.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jun 17 2005, 10:23 AM']It's really been only used twice. 
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[/quote]And both times in connection with our Holy Mother
:wub:

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jun 17 2005, 08:23 AM']It's really been only used twice. 
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Actually the Popes have issued many Extraordinary and Ordinary infallible definitions throughout history, and that is why Bishop Gasser in his [u]Official Relatio[/u] at the First Vatican Council said that, "Already thousands and thousands of dogmatic judgments have gone forth from the Apostolic See . . ."; thus establishing the fact that the ability of the Popes to issue infallible decisions was not a new or novel doctrine.

[photosynthesis]

what were these 2 ex cathedra decisions?

[Q the Ninja]

But there is a difference between those and actual [i]Ex Cathedra[/i] statements.

One adds something, the other just makes a judgment:

[i]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/i] follows this, where the Holy Father made a judgment (invoking infallibility, albeit from the Universal Episcopal Magisterium) without the [i]Ex Cathedra[/i] status.

Edited June 17, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='photosynthesis' date='Jun 17 2005, 10:39 AM']what were these 2 ex cathedra decisions?
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Assumption and Immaculate Conception.

[philothea]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 16 2005, 11:36 PM']Now because the Pope and the U.S. bishops have not declared the Iraq war to be intrinsically immoral, it follows that Catholics are free to support the American and Coalition war effort.  It is important that Catholics not confuse the prudential judgments of the Pope with infallible or authoritative acts of his Magisterium.
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Actually, there was one American Bishop who used all his, um, Bishop powers to declare the Iraq war immoral, and told those under his guidance that they would be committing a mortal sin to participate in it.

I can probably find the letter he wrote, if you like.

[Apotheoun]

Some examples of Extraordinary (ex Cathedra) infallible definitions of the Roman Pontiffs include -- but are not limited to -- the Papal Bull [u]Unam Sanctam[/u] of Pope Boniface VIII; the Papal Bull [u]Execrabilis[/u] of Pope Pius II, which condemned conciliarism as heretical; the Apostolic Constitution [u]Ineffabilis Deus[/u] of Blessed Pius IX; and the Apostolic Constitution [u]Munificentissimus Deus[/u] of Pope Pius XII; also included as Extraordinary acts of the Papal Magisterium would be the confirmations given to Ecumenical Councils and even local Synods, like the Council of Orange, that are raised to universal dogmatic status. Some examples of infallible acts of the Ordinary Papal Magisterium include the following, Pope Leo XIII's decree [u]Apostolicae Curae[/u], which declared Anglican orders invalid; also the decree of Pope Pius XII on the proper matter and form for the Sacrament of Orders, entitled [u]Sacramentum Ordinis[/u]; Pope John Paul II's Apostolic Letter [u]Ordinatio Sacredotalis[/u], which concerns the reservation of priestly ordination to men alone, and his Encyclical Letter [u]Evangelium Vitae[/u], on the sanctity of human life. In addition to these documents the canonization of saints are also held to be infallible act of the Papal Magisterium.

[Q the Ninja]

If you want, I'll give you a response from my professor why Unam Sanctam is not infallible.

[color=red]Snip[/color]

Oh, and Pope Benedict as Cardinal Ratzinger said that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is not Ex Cathedra and so Evangelium Vitae wouldn't be either by the same logic.

Edited June 17, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 17 2005, 09:04 AM']Actually, there was one American Bishop who used all his, um, Bishop powers to declare the Iraq war immoral, and told those under his guidance that they would be committing a mortal sin to participate in it.

I can probably find the letter he wrote, if you like.
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An individual bishop does not have the authority to infallibly declare anything, therefore the bishop in question merely expressed his fallible opinion on the matter, and no Catholic, not even those within his diocese, are bound to his judgment.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='Jun 17 2005, 09:09 AM']If you want, I'll give you a response from my professor why Unam Sanctam is not infallible.

I think I need a new school, all the Theology professors stick to two...

Oh, and Pope Benedict as Cardinal Ratzinger said that Ordinatio Sacerdotalis is not Ex Cathedra and so Evangelium Vitae wouldn't be either by the same logic.
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You are correct, [u]Ordinatio Sacerdotalis[/u] and [u]Evangelium Vitae[/u] are not [i]ex Cathedra[/i] definitions, they are instead infallible acts of the Ordinary Papal Magisterium.

[Q the Ninja]

The UD Theology department sticks to two.

[Q the Ninja]

Okay.

BTW, I edited for uncharitability.