Your Favorite Form Of Government

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 July 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1278297361' post='2137789']
Rome hasn't condemned anarchism as I've defined it, unless you're Rome.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Holy Mother Church has always condemned anarchism as chaos, the matter is closed.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 July 2010 - 09:38 PM' timestamp='1278297490' post='2137790']
Holy Mother Church has always condemned anarchism as chaos, the matter is closed.
[/quote]

You're mistaken. The Church is not.


~Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 July 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1278297769' post='2137795']
You're mistaken. The Church is not.


~Sternhauser
[/quote]

I highly doubt that. Here are but a few quotes from Mother Church that condemn and speak of the evils of the heresy known as Anarchism.

" Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves. For they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief, for this is unprofitable for you."

1. Anarchy is an evil, and the occasion of many calamities, and the source of disorder and confusion. For as, if you take away the leader from a chorus, the chorus will not be in tune and in order; and if from a phalanx of an army thou remove the commander, the evolutions will no longer be made in time and order, and if from a ship thou take away the helmsman, you will sink the vessel; so too if from a flock thou remove the shepherd, you have overthrown and destroyed all.

Anarchy then is an evil, and a cause of ruin. But no less an evil also is the disobedience to rulers. For it comes again to the same. For a people not obeying a ruler, is like one which has none; and perhaps even worse. For in the former case they have at least an excuse for disorder, but no longer in the latter, but are punished. - Homily 34 on Hebrews

In letters addressed to the people of Italy We have more than once warned those on whom falls the serious responsibility of power of this natural and necessary connection between religious decadence and the development of the spirit of revolution and disorder. We have also drawn attention to the inevitable progress of socialism and anarchy and to the endless evil to which they expose the nation. - SPESSE VOLTE

They sometimes follow in the wake of violent crises, too often of a bloody character, in the midst of which preexisting governments totally disappear; then anarchy holds sway, and soon public order is shaken to its very foundations and finally overthrown. From that time onward a social need obtrudes itself upon the nation; it must provide for itself without delay. - AU MILIEU DES SOLLICITUDES

We condemn the book because it contains false, calumnious, and rash propositions which lead to anarchy; which are contrary to the word of God; which are impious, scandalous, and erroneous; and which the Church already condemned, especially in regard to the Waldensians, Wycliffites, Hussites, and other heretics of this kind. - SINGULARI NOS

or, in the days when the Albigensian sect, posing as the champion of pure faith and morals, but in reality introducing the worst kind of anarchy and corruption, brought many a nation to its utter ruin, the Church fought against it and the other infamous factions associated with it, not with troops and arms, but chiefly with the power of the most holy Rosary, the devotion which the Mother of God taught to our Father Dominic in order that he might propagate it. - MAGNAE DEI MATRIS

Certainly to no other causes than to this discipline and subjection inspired by Catholic teachings and spirit have we the right to attribute the possibility of maintaining some peace and public tranquillity while the turbulence of parties and the passions of revolutionaries worked to propel the nation toward the abyss of anarchy. - Dilectissima Nobis

Thus the principles based on the spiritualistic philosophy of Christianity having been obscured or destroyed in the minds of many, a triumphant materialism served to prepare mankind for the propaganda of anarchy and of social hatred which was let loose on such a great scale. - UBI ARCANO DEI CONSILIO

More bitter shall be the consequences of these threats when the vices of society are being multiplied, when the sin of rulers and of the people consists especially in the exclusion of God and in rebellion against the Church of Christ: that double social apostasy which is the deplorable fount of anarchy, corruption, and endless misery for the individual and for society. - COMMUNIUM RERUM

Since, as We then said, "belief in God is the unshakable foundation of all social order and of all responsibility on earth, it follows that all those who do not want anarchy and terrorism ought to take energetic steps to prevent the enemies of religion from attaining the goal they have so brazenly proclaimed to the world." - DIVINI REDEMPTORIS

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 July 2010 - 10:05 PM' timestamp='1278299136' post='2137803']
I highly doubt that. Here are but a few quotes from Mother Church that condemn and speak of the evils of the heresy known as Anarchism.

" Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves. For they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief, for this is unprofitable for you."

1. Anarchy is an evil, and the occasion of many calamities, and the source of disorder and confusion. For as, if you take away the leader from a chorus, the chorus will not be in tune and in order; and if from a phalanx of an army thou remove the commander, the evolutions will no longer be made in time and order, and if from a ship thou take away the helmsman, you will sink the vessel; so too if from a flock thou remove the shepherd, you have overthrown and destroyed all.

Anarchy then is an evil, and a cause of ruin. But no less an evil also is the disobedience to rulers. For it comes again to the same. For a people not obeying a ruler, is like one which has none; and perhaps even worse. For in the former case they have at least an excuse for disorder, but no longer in the latter, but are punished. - Homily 34 on Hebrews

In letters addressed to the people of Italy We have more than once warned those on whom falls the serious responsibility of power of this natural and necessary connection between religious decadence and the development of the spirit of revolution and disorder. We have also drawn attention to the inevitable progress of socialism and anarchy and to the endless evil to which they expose the nation. - SPESSE VOLTE

They sometimes follow in the wake of violent crises, too often of a bloody character, in the midst of which preexisting governments totally disappear; then anarchy holds sway, and soon public order is shaken to its very foundations and finally overthrown. From that time onward a social need obtrudes itself upon the nation; it must provide for itself without delay. - AU MILIEU DES SOLLICITUDES

We condemn the book because it contains false, calumnious, and rash propositions which lead to anarchy; which are contrary to the word of God; which are impious, scandalous, and erroneous; and which the Church already condemned, especially in regard to the Waldensians, Wycliffites, Hussites, and other heretics of this kind. - SINGULARI NOS

or, in the days when the Albigensian sect, posing as the champion of pure faith and morals, but in reality introducing the worst kind of anarchy and corruption, brought many a nation to its utter ruin, the Church fought against it and the other infamous factions associated with it, not with troops and arms, but chiefly with the power of the most holy Rosary, the devotion which the Mother of God taught to our Father Dominic in order that he might propagate it. - MAGNAE DEI MATRIS

Certainly to no other causes than to this discipline and subjection inspired by Catholic teachings and spirit have we the right to attribute the possibility of maintaining some peace and public tranquillity while the turbulence of parties and the passions of revolutionaries worked to propel the nation toward the abyss of anarchy. - Dilectissima Nobis

Thus the principles based on the spiritualistic philosophy of Christianity having been obscured or destroyed in the minds of many, a triumphant materialism served to prepare mankind for the propaganda of anarchy and of social hatred which was let loose on such a great scale. - UBI ARCANO DEI CONSILIO

More bitter shall be the consequences of these threats when the vices of society are being multiplied, when the sin of rulers and of the people consists especially in the exclusion of God and in rebellion against the Church of Christ: that double social apostasy which is the deplorable fount of anarchy, corruption, and endless misery for the individual and for society. - COMMUNIUM RERUM

Since, as We then said, "belief in God is the unshakable foundation of all social order and of all responsibility on earth, it follows that all those who do not want anarchy and terrorism ought to take energetic steps to prevent the enemies of religion from attaining the goal they have so brazenly proclaimed to the world." - DIVINI REDEMPTORIS
[/quote]

Whatever they are talking about, it is not anarchy as I've defined it. They are obviously talking about some ideology where each man should be able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with no thought to any rule or authority whatsoever. That's antinomianism, not anarchy as I've defined it. It's talking about some system that cannot exist with leaders. Whatever that ideology is, it is not anarchy as I've defined it. We are not bound to obey every decree of rulers. You know that.

They appear to be speaking primarily against the false doctrines of the early antinomians, and the communist, atheist, libertine, molotov-cocktail-chucking "anarchists" of the late 1800's and early 1900's. They're clearly not speaking against any ideology I've ever endorsed.

~Sternhauser

Edited July 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 July 2010 - 11:44 PM' timestamp='1278301486' post='2137813']
Whatever they are talking about, it is not anarchy as I've defined it. They are obviously talking about some ideology where each man should be able to do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, with no thought to any rule or authority whatsoever. That's antinomianism, not anarchy as I've defined it. It's talking about some system that cannot exist with leaders. Whatever that ideology is, it is not anarchy as I've defined it. We are not bound to obey every decree of rulers. You know that.

They appear to be speaking against the false doctrines of the communist, atheist, antinomian, libertine molotov-cocktail-chucking "anarchists" of the late 1800's and early 1900's. They're clearly not speaking against any ideology I've ever endorsed.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


All speak of what Anarchism actual is, chaos, and disorder, not the fantasy of how you define it. Your attempt to throw off the condemnation of Anarchism is truly amazing, most illogical and quite disturbing.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 July 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1278301866' post='2137814']
All speak of what Anarchism actual is, chaos, and disorder, not the fantasy of how you define it. Your attempt to throw off the condemnation of Anarchism is truly amazing, most illogical and quite disturbing.
[/quote]

There is more than one type of love, yet all are real loves. Can there not be more than one type of anarchy? The definition is not as limited as you'd like to make it. The Church is attacking the idea of a rejection of all rules, all leaders, and all order. I've never ascribed to any of those doctrines. Neither did most of the people who claimed they ascribed to those doctrines. I call what I ascribe to "anarchy," yet it is not the "anarchy" involving the rejection of all rules, all leaders, and all order that the Church is condemning. Don't like my definition? That's fine.

The "fantasy" of how I define it was the fantasy that J.R.R. Tolkien believed in. And Servant of God Dorothy Day. Have the Catholic Workers, founded by Servant of God Dorothy Day, been condemned as adhering to heresy? [url="http://www.catholicworker.com/ah_anar.htm"]http://www.catholicw...com/ah_anar.htm[/url] She called herself an anarchist. How did she possibly make it to "Servant of God" status in the Church, with all her mockery of "Holy Mother State," as she called it?

John Cardinal O'Connor, not exactly someone you could call "unorthodox," had [url="http://www.catholicworker.org/dorothyday/canonizationtext.cfm?Number=82"]this[/url] to say about Dorothy Day:

"It has also been noted that Dorothy Day often seemed friendly to political groups hostile to the Church, for example, communists, socialists, and anarchists. [Sternhauser's note: Yet she called herself one. Cardinal O'Connor recognizes the difference.] It is necessary to divide her political stances in two spheres: pre-and post- conversion. After her conversion, she was neither a member of such political groupings nor did she approve of their tactics or any denial of private property. Yet, it must be said, she often held opinions in common with them. What they held in common was a common respect for the poor and a desire for economic equity. In no sense did she approve of any form of atheism, agnosticism, or religious indifference. Moreover, her complete commitment to pacifism in imitation of Christ often separated her from these political ideologies. She rejected all military force; she rejected aid to force in any way in a most idealistic manner. So much were her "politics" based on an ideology of nonviolence that they may be said to be apolitical. Like so many saints of days gone by, she was an idealist in a non-ideal world. It was her contention that men and women should begin to live on earth the life they would one day lead in heaven, a life of peace and harmony. Much of what she spoke of in terms of social justice anticipated the teachings of Pope John Paul II and lends support to her cause. . . .

I have subjected Dorothy Day's post-conversion writings to the careful examination of a dogmatist, moralist, and canonist. All assure me that her writings are in complete fidelity to the Church. Moreover, I frequently quote from her writings in my own columns and homilies. Letters continue to come to my attention from those who were introduced to her by my own efforts and from those who know well of her and are happy to see my support for her. Many letters ask that I consider a proposition of her Cause to the Holy See. Thus, in my position as Archbishop of New York, I believe it my responsibility to promote this Cause. In many ways, it is truly a "grassroots" movement that calls for the recognition of Dorothy Day as a Saint of the Church. I assure Your Excellency (Pro-Perfect of the Congregation for the Causes of Saints) that there is substantial following of thousands who wait in the wings for the Holy See to consider this Cause. Therefore, I ask that you permit me to begin the necessary steps toward the consideration of the Cause of Dorothy Day. "


~Sternhauser

Edited July 5, 2010 by Sternhauser

[KnightofChrist]

Anarchic Sects have always been condemned by the Church in all the forms and flavors they appear. I hope you will one day truly submit yourself to Mother Church's teachings on the condemnation of the heresy of Anarchism. Not everything a Saint may write or believe may be actual Church teaching. If J.R.R. Tolkien, Dorothy Day truly purposed Anarchism they purposed error and chaos. What matters is what the Church has taught not necessarily what a individual Saint, or a few hand full of Catholics may have believed.

Edited July 5, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 July 2010 - 11:13 PM' timestamp='1278303228' post='2137819']
Anarchic Sects have always been condemned by the Church in all the forms and flavors they appear. I hope you will one day truly submit yourself to Mother Church's teachings on the condemnation of the heresy of Anarchism. Not everything a Saint may write or believe may be actual Church teaching. If J.R.R. Tolkien, Dorothy Day truly purposed Anarchism they purposed error and chaos. What matters is what the Church has taught not necessarily what a individual Saint, or a few hand full of Catholics may have believed.
[/quote]

Those dogmatists, moralists and canonists that Cardinal O'Connor mentioned found nothing in the writings of Dorothy Day that was contrary to the teachings of the Church. I'll take their word over yours.

~Sternhauser

Edited July 5, 2010 by Sternhauser