Pax Christi Usa

[MC Just]

is this a dissenter orginization?

Edited June 15, 2005 by MC Just

[dspen2005]

well, my former bishop is president of this organization. and he is the very definition of liberal.... i can't say that it is a dissenting organization, but definitely a liberal-leaning association.... but then the question becomes, is there a difference???

[MC Just]

a bishop representing this group is visiting my city soon. I want to tell him offreally really bad. I just read a little about the group and it says they support women in powerful positions in the church.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='MC Just']is this a dissenter orginization?[/quote]
In a word: Yes. Although they try to hide it pretty well. I used to be affiliated with Pax Christi, even before I had fallen into the heresy of modernism, because I was unaware that they were heterodox. Catholic Culture, formerly PetersNet, gives them a red light rating for these reasons:

- Their mission statement includes language that would give a Catholic pause (ex., "primacy of conscience" and "sustainable world").

- They support the homosexual agenda (i.e., they reference the USCCB's "Always Our Children" document, they condemn "homophobia" and "heterosexism" without defining these terms, they call on Catholics to "commit their hearts to acceptance and inclusion of gay and lesbian people," without defining precisely what this means or presenting the unambiguous teaching of the Church, and they have written articles encouraging Catholics to lobby against the silencing of New Ways Ministry founders Fr. Robert Nugent and Sr. Jeannine Gramick, both of whom refused to sign a statement sent to them by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith upholding the teaching of the Church on homosexuality).

- They take a permissive attitude toward abortion (i.e., they want to find "common ground" with those who are pro-choice, nowhere mentioning the desire to find common ground with those who support capital punishment or just war, which implies that they are far less serious about abortion than they are about the latter issues).

- They link to many other heterodox organizations (ex., Call To Action) as well as linking to liberal Protestant and liberal secular organizations.

To conclude, there's no reason why Catholics can't oppose war, but they shouldn't be doing it within the framework of Pax Christi USA. Most orthodox Catholics, even those who tend to oppose war such as myself, wouldn't be caught dead with the folks from Pax Christi USA, many of whom are also members of Call To Action, FutureChurch, Voice of the Faithful, Dignity USA, etc.

[quote name='MC Just']a bishop representing this group is visiting my city soon. I want to tell him offreally really bad. I just read a little about the group and it says they support women in powerful positions in the church.[/quote]
I don't think I have to tell you that any "telling off" must be done out of respect for the bishop's office. Even if he is not living his vocation the way he should be, his office still makes him a successor of the apostles, and you must give him the due respect. Correcting any bishop should always be done respectfully and with a mind to conversion, not angering them. There is always the possibility that this bishop, who is likely more bureaucratic and not intimately involved with Pax Christi, is unaware of their more heterodox positions.

This isn't Bishop Gumbleton, is it?

[Socrates]

They are not to be confused with the Pax Christi Sisters, who are orthodox.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jun 15 2005, 02:33 PM']I don't think I have to tell you that any "telling off" must be done out of respect for the bishop's office.  Even if he is not living his vocation the way he should be, his office still makes him a successor of the apostles, and you must give him the due respect.  Correcting any bishop should always be done respectfully and with a mind to conversion, not angering them.  There is always the possibility that this bishop, who is likely more bureaucratic and not intimately involved with Pax Christi, is unaware of their more heterodox positions.

This isn't Bishop Gumbleton, is it?
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yes it's bishop gumbelton. I understand about the repsect for the office part. it just makes me crazy.

[Cathurian]

They had a booth at the Eucharist Congress in Atlanta, and I liked the idea of working for world peace and all, but my heterodox radar started pinging just a tad when I read the statement "no Christian war in history has met the criteria of the just war theory". That made me want to go research the veracity of that statement first.

Just then a lady came up beside me and started talking about Catholic Social Services. I think God kept me from being hoodwinked by the schismatic group.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='MC Just']yes it's bishop gumbelton. I understand about the repsect for the office part. it just makes me crazy.[/quote]
Bishop Gumbleton seems to be pretty set in his ways, and I'm sure that he is aware of Pax Christi USA's heterodox problems; I don't think correcting him would do any good, but of course that's up to you.

[MC Just]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jun 16 2005, 09:58 AM'][quote name='MC Just']yes it's bishop gumbelton. I understand about the repsect for the office part. it just makes me crazy.[/quote]
Bishop Gumbleton seems to be pretty set in his ways, and I'm sure that he is aware of Pax Christi USA's heterodox problems; I don't think correcting him would do any good, but of course that's up to you.
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He's coming to a parish around the block from here. Well there's really nothing i can do, 80% of the people who go there voted for John Kerry and are ignorant of Church teaching anyhow. I wont correct the man, especially if he's set in his ways, i know how that is. Only prayers will do good in this situation.

[mp15]

[quote name='MC Just' date='Jun 16 2005, 01:48 PM']He's coming to a  parish around the block from here. Well there's really nothing i can do, 80% of the people who go there voted for John Kerry and are ignorant of Church teaching anyhow. I wont  correct the man, especially if  he's set in his ways, i know how that is. Only prayers will do good in this situation.
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MC, I wouldn't say there is nothing you could do. You could always go to the person above him, and so on. That is what I would do. Prayers might be answered, then again they might not. Better to be proactive than sitting back and doing nothing. Far to many people do that already, which is part of what is causing some of the problems in the church today.

Edited June 16, 2005 by mp15

[scardella]

[quote name='mp15' date='Jun 16 2005, 03:41 PM']MC, I wouldn't say there is nothing you could do. You could always go to the person above him, and so on. That is what I would do. Prayers might be answered, then again they might not. Better to be proactive than sitting back and doing nothing. Far to many people do that already, which is part of what is causing some of the problems in the church today.
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I wouldn't call prayer being inactive. In fact, I'd say that it is usually most of the work. However, that doesn't mean that other actions are not necessary. Part of being an effective preacher/witness/etc. is having a solid faith life. You have to live it first. Otherwise, your other actions would ring hollow.

I'd say bring the situation up in prayer. Ask for guidance of the Holy Spirit. He'll show you what to do... Dang, that sounds all touchy-feely, huh? Seek the perfect will of God. He'll show you what to do.

Oh, and advice is usually hard to give when you're not close to a situation.

Just for tongue-in-cheekness, prayer is going to the person above the bishop...

[Good Friday]

[quote name='mp15']MC, I wouldn't say there is nothing you could do. You could always go to the person above him, and so on. That is what I would do. Prayers might be answered, then again they might not. Better to be proactive than sitting back and doing nothing. Far to many people do that already, which is part of what is causing some of the problems in the church today.[/quote]
I think that MC Just is right in saying that his best recourse in this instance is to prayer. I'm familiar with Bishop Gumbleton, and I can tell you that all of his superiors -- probably right on up to the pope -- already know about him. It would be impossible for them not to know about his activities, what organizations he belongs to, etc. Whatever their reasons, they're not doing anything about him. For Pete's sake, he has a column with the [i]National Catholic Reporter[/i].

While I wouldn't necessarily discourage writing to his superiors, I really don't think it would do much good right now.

[MC Just]

Well, he will get a copy of my CD then. lol

Edited June 17, 2005 by MC Just

[mp15]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='Jun 16 2005, 04:02 PM'][quote name='mp15']MC, I wouldn't say there is nothing you could do. You could always go to the person above him, and so on. That is what I would do. Prayers might be answered, then again they might not. Better to be proactive than sitting back and doing nothing. Far to many people do that already, which is part of what is causing some of the problems in the church today.[/quote]
I think that MC Just is right in saying that his best recourse in this instance is to prayer. I'm familiar with Bishop Gumbleton, and I can tell you that all of his superiors -- probably right on up to the pope -- already know about him. It would be impossible for them not to know about his activities, what organizations he belongs to, etc. Whatever their reasons, they're not doing anything about him. For Pete's sake, he has a column with the [i]National Catholic Reporter[/i].

While I wouldn't necessarily discourage writing to his superiors, I really don't think it would do much good right now.
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Nathan, you may be right. If all those above him know and do nothing then what good will it do, and what does that say about the state of the Church? I agree that prayer should be the first coarse of action, however I think the good lord doesn't always answer prayers. Sometimes like a parent is with their kids, God is with us. He provides guidence, but not always the answer. That we have to figure out on our own. I say pray first, then make a lot of noise if that is what is needed. If enough noise is made sooner or later someone will hear and take action.

[MC Just]

hey, yall know me in my music, that im straight up in ya face. I'm just starting to realize that you cant really debate with some people.

I've tried it. No matter how much truth, proof or sense you make, they will not see passed their own version or their own interpretation of things.

It can get very frustrating. Especially where I live now, these people are impossible to debate with.

Many of them go to mass every sunday, yet they support pro-choice poliiticians and abortion.

I've heard it personally "I'll listen to the church when the church is actually right" or "father so and so is voting for this person, so i will too! I'm not surprised that this Bishop is visiting though.

Edited June 18, 2005 by MC Just