the state of the debate board

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jun 15 2005, 01:37 AM']Well according to 2 Corinthians 5:20 I am an ambassador of the New Covenant of which the Church has been grafted in.  So yes, I would represent the church in that sense.  However, if you speak of a representative having the authority to declare truth then that has not existed since apostles were commissioned personally by the Lord Jesus the Christ and walked the earth.. I would say no, I am not an apostle of the Lord Jesus.

Now, before you start telling me priests in the Catholic Church are apostolic descendants and maintain their authority without the gifts of apostleship and start telling me that that is only my private interptation - so your view is also.  We are subjective creatures and while some of us seek truth and seek to find God by prayer and humbleness, many others declare themselves as truth setting themselves up as gods themselves in all the arrogant boasting often attributed to Satan (Isa. 14; Eze. 28).

And so my point is that while "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CHURCH" is a Catholic understanding, I do not appreciate being branded because your theology disagrees with mine.  If you wish to say "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE Catholic Church" that is a true statement that no one can argue with.  To say "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CHURCH" leaves no room for discussion and berates those of different backgrounds.
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The Catholic Church-- DO you Representthe UCC or the BCC or the MCC Or any of the other Rites of The Church. The Church is the Proper name for the Catholic Church if you "do not appreciate it" well that is really to bad, it is so.

[Circle_Master]

I've had this discussion here before and will attempt to ignore your "well we are the church so if you don't like it too bad" attitude. Phatmass residents finally agreed that Catholic Church was an accepted term to refer to the entire Roman Catholic Church. If you use "Catholic Church" then that also could include the Episcopal Church or the Church of England or various others. If you just use the "Church" then that could cover an even broader term.

I used Catholic Church for clarity. And since this is interfaith dialogue is not clarity what should be striven for?

And anyway, that is a side point to my post, not the main issue.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Circle_Master

[bx_racer]

what exactly is trolling?

[Circle_Master]

That would be deliberately provoking arguments on newsgroups or bulletin boards, usually with no other intent than to gain attention for the sake of attention.

However, since I was a normal poster here, and since this thread was about "what happened to the debate forum" I found it appropriate to add my two cents. Especially in light of the constant push for charity here in discussions.

[Apotheoun]

I really think that the "group icon" question is somewhat trivial. I have gone to non-Catholic websites where I'm called a Roman Catholic, when of course I am not a Roman Catholic, but I don't let it offend me.

[Circle_Master]

Correct Apotheoun, you are called a Roman Catholic for clarifying purposes. They do not label you "I am not a Christian" because you are Roman Catholic. Perhaps in words they may, but then they are wrong if they do that.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jun 15 2005, 12:16 AM']Correct Apotheoun, you are called a Roman Catholic for clarifying purposes.  They do not label you "I am not a Christian" because you are Roman Catholic.  Perhaps in words they may, but then they are wrong if they do that.
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That does depend upon the website. I've been called a "Roman Catholic" and been told that "Roman Catholics" aren't Christians. So again, it does vary from place to place.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Circle_Master' date='Jun 15 2005, 12:16 AM'][. . .]  They do not label you "I am not a Christian" because you are Roman Catholic.  Perhaps in words they may, but then they are wrong if they do that.
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Let's be frank about this issue.

When I go to non-Catholic web forums, I don't take offense at their theological views, even though I disagree with them. Moreover, I have been told countless times that I'm a Roman Catholic (when in fact I am not), and I've been told that Catholics aren't Christians. I've even gone to Eastern Orthodox websites and been told that I am a "Uniate" (which is an offensive term to Byzantine Catholics), but I try to look past the names I've been called, and simply stick to the issues that concern me.

[Circle_Master]

Agreed Apotheoun.

Here is where it is different: I am not arguing that we should have the same level of dialogue and respect for one another that pervades internet forums.

Christians are called to a higher standard of living and a higher standard in all areas of their lives. While I am not a Catholic I think you can appreciate this as well as I. (on another note, you quote Brevard Childs, so you have to be cool :-)) How phatmass can go beyond the normal immaturity is to condemn unneccessary trolling and arrogance where it lies. For ages on here IronMonk and another who I forget his name insulted me daily which I ignored so that I could learn about the Catholic Church. They frankly were the worst witnesses of the Catholic Church I have ever met in my life. (to be blunt).

If you want this to be a better site -- and I do as well -- then things like this need to be avoided. Never compare yourselves to how other sites do it, consider Scripture and the principles which may apply here.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]I've had this discussion here before and will attempt to ignore your "well we are the church so if you don't like it too bad" attitude. Phatmass residents finally agreed that Catholic Church was an accepted term to refer to the entire Roman Catholic Church. If you use "Catholic Church" then that also could include the Episcopal Church or the Church of England or various others. If you just use the "Church" then that could cover an even broader term.[/quote]

Not by our understanding or the understanding of the earliest Christians. The term Catholic was first used by the 3rd Bishop of Antioch, St Ignatius, a disciple of St John the beloved disciple. In his epistles he makes clear that anyone who has broken off from the recognised body of the Church is no longer Catholic and cannot be known by that name. The Anglican Communion is the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church is the Catholic Church. Other people might claim to be the Catholic Church but they cannot square their understanding of that term against the understanding of the Apostles and the Apostolic Fathers.

In the Pauline and Catholic epistles there are several examples of people being thrown out of the Church, some are even mentioned by name. The reception of an Anathema severs one from the body of the Church and this is an understanding as old as the Church itself as is evidenced by the writings of the Church Fathers. This is one of the things the Venerable Cardinal Newman recognised while he was pondering his position in the Anglican communion and saw that regardless of whether or not Anglicans had apostolicity so too did the Arians, but that did not give either communion Catholicity.

We believe in One, Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Redefinitions of that term might be proposed according to the 'branch theory' etc.etc. but they are redefinitions and do not equate to the teaching of the apostles and Fathers e.g. St Ignatius of Antioch on the subject.

"Ubi Petrus, Ibi Ecclesia"--St Ambrose.

[Circle_Master]

Myles, I know what you believe. Thanks for the summary of Catholic Church beliefs again though.

[Apotheoun]

Circle Master,

Most certainly charity should reign supreme, but always in truth of course.

Be that as it may, perhaps you are misunderstanding the nature of the group icon that you're talking about, because it does not mean that the person so named is a non-Christian; instead, it simply means that the posts of the person in question do not conform to the teaching of the Magisterium of the Church.

Now, I'm sure that you agree that your posts don't conform to the Magisterium, and that the owner of the forum as a Catholic has a right, and I would say a duty, to try and make sure that anyone who comes to this forum looking for an orthodox Catholic answer to a specific theological question can find it, and have some way of differentiating the different posts.

Now perhaps I am mistaken on this issue, but that is how I understood the purpose of the group icons; in other words, the icons are not meant to be a "put down," nor are they meant to say that a person who has the icon "I do not represent the Church" is a non-Christian. They are simply meant to help those who come to the forum in order to find the Church's position on a given question, to do just that, find the Catholic doctrinal position.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Myles, I know what you believe. Thanks for the summary of Catholic Church beliefs again though.[/quote]

Catholic beliefs (Roman Catholic is for the particular Latin church alone, the Byzantines, Melkites, Maronites etc dont style themselves as such)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Myles' date='Jun 15 2005, 12:50 AM']Catholic beliefs  (Roman Catholic is for the particular Latin church alone, the Byzantines, Melkites, Maronites etc dont style themselves as such)
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Yes, Myles has first hand experience with this fact, since he is a member of the Byzantine Forum.

[Circle_Master]

Very true, and I agree with your reasoning again.

Where we differ is in the choice of "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CHURCH" as opposed to "non-Catholic" "evangelical" "protestant" or "Non-Catholic Church". All the latter would be simplier and would insult no one and cause no problems. I question the wisdom in chosing "I DO NOT REPRESENT THE CHURCH". As I argued briefly in an earlier article within my own understanding of what Scripture teaches and along with the majority of protestant teachings, I DO represent the church.

Would it be acceptable arguably to have a board in Germany during WW2 (although they did not exist) and to have Jews with the group icon "I AM NOT A HUMAN"? To the Nazi ideology that might be ok, but yet we know it to be insulting to the Jewish person.

Here we have non-Catholics being branded with Catholic terminology. Is not the fundamental choice the same between the two comparisons? Perhaps you can argue in some settings that this is acceptable, however in an inter-faith forum it would seem measures should be taken to welcome non-Catholics.

Edited June 15, 2005 by Circle_Master