Are lturgical documents prohibitive

[Apotheoun]

The same is true with the indult permitting communion in the hand. The universal norm in the Roman Rite is still to receive holy communion on the tongue.

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 24 2005, 09:31 AM']The GIRM is clear on this.  My inference is not backwards.  They call it out as a norm for the US.
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[quote]In view of the law that "sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843 1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. [b]Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.[/b][/quote]

The bolding means that the practice instituted by the USCCB is an indult, which has [i]recognitio[/i] from the Holy See. The norm is to kneel. The indult (even if accepted practice) is to stand.

QED

[Apotheoun]

Did you have a double post there for a second? I thought I saw a double post. Is your Phatmass connection screwing up too?

[Cam42]

yep....but I fixed it.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:41 AM']The bolding means that the practice instituted by the USCCB is an indult, which has [i]recognitio[/i] from the Holy See.  The norm is to kneel.  The indult (even if accepted practice) is to stand.

QED
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Also from the GIRM.

[quote] “With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions that the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal” [/quote]

Therefore in the US, we are required by the GIRM to stand for Eucharist. The GIRM calls for it as a "norm" in the US.

Edited June 24, 2005 by jaime

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 24 2005, 07:23 AM']Therefore in the US, we are required by the GIRM to stand for Eucharist.  The GIRM calls for it as a "norm" in the US.
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The norm of particular law in the United States is to stand, and this indult was granted by the Apostolic See, but the universal norm of law, which is to kneel for holy communion, remains in effect. Thus, whether to kneel or stand when receiving holy communion in the Roman Rite within the United States is left to the discretion of the communicant.

The following documents are clarifications issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments:

[quote]Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. n. 1322/02/L

Rome, 1 July 2002

Your Excellency,

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has recently received reports of members of the faithful in your Diocese being refused Holy Communion unless while standing to receive, as opposed to kneeling. The reports state that such a policy has been announced to parishioners. There were possible indications that such a phenomenon might be somewhat more widespread in the Diocese, but the Congregation is unable to verify whether such is the case. This Dicastery is confident that Your Excellency will be in a position to make a more reliable determination of the matter, and these complaints in any event provide an occasion for the Congregation to communicate the manner in which it habitually addresses this matter, with a request that you make this position known to any priests who may be in need of being thus informed.

The Congregation in fact is concerned at the number of similar complaints that it has received in recent months from various places, and considers any refusal of Holy Communion to a member of the faithful on the basis of his or her kneeling posture to be a grave violation of one of the most basic rights of the Christian faithful, namely that of being assisted by their Pastors by means of the Sacraments ([i]Codex Iuris Canonici[/i], canon 213). In view of the law that "sacred ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843  1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the [i]Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani[/i] n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

In fact, as His Eminence, Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger has recently emphasized, the practice of kneeling for Holy Communion has in its favor a centuries-old tradition, and it is a particularly expressive sign of adoration, completely appropriate in light of the true, real and substantial presence of Our Lord Jesus Christ under the consecrated species.

Given the importance of this matter, the Congregation would request that Your Excellency inquire specifically whether this priest in fact has a regular practice of refusing Holy Communion to any member of the faithful in the circumstances described above and - if the complaint is verified - that you also firmly instruct him and any other priests who may have had such a practice to refrain from acting thus in the future. Priests should understand that the Congregation will regard future complaints of this nature with great seriousness, and if they are verified, it intends to seek disciplinary action consonant with the gravity of the pastoral abuse.

Thanking Your Excellency for your attention to this matter and relying on your kind collaboration in its regard,
Sincerely yours in Christ,

Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estévez
Prefect

+Francesco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop Secretary[/quote]

[quote]Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. n. 1322/02/L

Rome, 1 July 2002

Dear Sir,

This Congregation for Divine Worship gratefully acknowledges receipt of your letter, regarding an announced policy of denial of Holy Communion to those who kneel to receive it at a certain church.

It is troubling that you seem to express some reservations about both the propriety and the usefulness of addressing the Holy See regarding this matter. Canon 212 2 of the [u]Code of Canon Law[/u] states that "Christ's faithful are totally free to make known their needs, especially their spiritual ones, and their desire: to the Pastor of the Church". The canon then continues in 3: "According to their own knowledge competence and position, they have the right, and indeed sometimes the duty, to present to the sacred Pastor; their opinions regarding those things that pertain to the good of the Church".... Accordingly, in consideration of the nature of the problem and the relative likelihood that it might or might not be resolved on the local level, every member of the faithful has the right of recourse to the Roman Pontiff either personally or by means of the Dicasteries or Tribunals of the Roman Curia.

Another fundamental right of the faithful, as noted in canon 213, is "the right to receive assistance by the sacred Pastors from the spiritual goods of the Church, especially the word of God and the Sacraments". In view of the law that "sacred" ministers may not deny the sacraments to those who opportunely ask for them, are properly disposed and are not prohibited by law from receiving them" (canon 843  1), there should be no such refusal to any Catholic who presents himself for Holy Communion at Mass, except in cases presenting a danger of grave scandal to other believers arising out of the person's unrepented public sin or obstinate heresy or schism, publicly professed or declared. Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the [i]Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani[/i] n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.

Please be assured that the Congregation takes this matter very seriously, and is making the necessary contacts in its regard. At the same time, this Dicastery continues to be ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again in the future.

Thanking you for your interest, and with every prayerful good wish, I am
Sincerely yours in Christ,

Monsignor Mario Marini
Undersecretary[/quote]

[quote]Congregation de Cultu Divino et Disciplina Sacramentorum

Prot. n. 47/03/L

Rome, February 26, 2003

This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received your letter dated December 1, 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent [i]recognitio[/i] of this Congregation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion.

As the authority by virtue of whose r[i]ecognitio[/i] the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: "...while this Congregation gave the [i]recognitio[/i] to the norm desired by the Bishops' Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion".

This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.

With every prayerful good wish, I am
Sincerely yours in Christ,

Mons. Mario Marini
Undersecretary[/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 24 2005, 10:23 AM']Also from the GIRM.
Therefore in the US, we are required by the GIRM to stand for Eucharist.  The GIRM calls for it as a "norm" in the US.
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It is an indult with the recognition of the Holy See. That is how the Holy See views it, it is how we are to view it. The GIRM is approved by the Prefect, who is now Cardinal Arinze, but was Cardinal Estevez. He spoke to the dubium that you are bringing up.

I quoted it. The judgment of the Prefect trumps the local Congregations. The Prefect is the governing authority, with the support of the Holy Father. In this instance, I know that recognitio normalizes the indult, but the fact of the matter is that the recoginito is applied to an indult, not the norm.

If it were a norm, why would there be a need for a respsonse from the Prefect and why would there be a need for recogintion from the Holy See on this matter?

Wouldn't it simply need to be stated?

Cardinal Estevez was speaking DIRECTLY to your citation.

[url="http://www.catholicliturgy.com/index.cfm/FuseAction/LawText/Index/6/LawIndex/47"]Here[/url] is what Mons. Mario Marini says:
[quote name='A letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship responding to this question on 2/26/03']This Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments has received your letter dated 1 December 2002, related to the application of the norms approved by the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, with the subsequent recognitio of this Congegation, as regards the question of the posture for receiving Holy Communion.

As the authority by virtue of whose recognitio the norm in question has attained the force of law, this Dicastery is competent to specify the manner in which the norm is to be understood for the sake of a proper application. Having received more than a few letters regarding this matter from different locations in the United States of America, the Congregation wishes to ensure that its position on the matter is clear.

To this end, it is perhaps useful to respond to your inquiry by repeating the content of a letter that the Congregation recently addressed to a Bishop in the United States of America from whose Diocese a number of pertinent letters had been received. The letter states: "...while this Congregation gave the recognitio to the norm desired by the Bishops' Conference of your country that people stand for Holy Communion, this was done on the condition that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds. Indeed, the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion."

This Dicastery hopes that the citation given here will provide an adequate answer to your letter. At the same time, please be assured that the Congregation remains ready to be of assistance if you should need to contact it again.[/quote]

[Cam42]

Seems Appy and I think the same way on this issue.

[Jaime]

Both of you are overlooking
[quote]Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.[/quote]

Why is this in there if not for correction?

Also

[quote]With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions that the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal”[/quote]

So the question posed is this

If the USCCB calls out for standing to be the norm

if the GIRM calls out that we are to be uniform in gestures and postures

If we are to obey our bishops

If we are not to (as Apotheoun has said) do anything that turns the liturgy into a private prayer

How is receiving the Eucharist while kneeling "not" inappropriate in the US?

Edited June 24, 2005 by jaime

[Cam42]

[quote]How is receiving the Eucharist while kneeling "not" inappropriate in the US?[/quote]

Because the Prefect for Discipline of the Sacraments has said that it is not inappropriate. He has jurisdiction over this matter and the various congregations (which includes the USCCB). If he says it is ok, then it is ok.

He outranks and clarifies those things in which a dubium has been raised. He did that. He says it is ok, then it is ok.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:05 AM']Seems Appy and I think the same way on this issue.
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Yes, we do. An indult of particular law does not vitiate or replace a universal norm of law, unless the Supreme Authority of the Church, which grants the indult, indicates that this is the case. As far as the indults permitting communion in the hand and standing to receive holy communion in the Latin Rite within the United States are concerned, the universal norm of the law, in both cases, is still in effect. Thus, the decision to receive communion in the hand or to stand when receiving holy communion is left to the discretion of the communicant.

[Cam42]

Exactly right.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:25 AM']Because the Prefect for Discipline of the Sacraments has said that it is not inappropriate.  He has jurisdiction over this matter and the various congregations (which includes the USCCB).  If he says it is ok, then it is ok.

He outranks and clarifies those things in which a dubium has been raised.  He did that.  He says it is ok, then it is ok.
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Correct. Now of course, the priest can if he wishes explain to a member of the lay faithful the reason why the US bishops desire that people stand when receiving holy communion, but as the clarification of the Congregation for Divine Worship (see Prot. n. 47/03/L, dated 26 February 2003) makes clear, whether to stand or kneel when receiving holy communion is left to the discretion of the communicant; and moreover, "the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion." [Prot. n. 47/03/L, dated 26 February 2003]

[Cam42]

Therefore, it is ok. And I am well within my rights as a Catholic to receive on my knees without any form of harrassment and or corrective action or teaching being lobbied against my person.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 24 2005, 08:36 AM']Therefore, it is ok.  And I am well within my rights as a Catholic to receive on my knees without any form of harrassment and or corrective action or teaching being lobbied against my person.
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I agree, based on the norm of law. As the CDW has said, "the faithful should not be imposed upon nor accused of disobedience and of acting illicitly when they kneel to receive Holy Communion." [Prot. n. 47/03/L, dated 26 February 2003]