Are lturgical documents prohibitive

[journeyman]

following from something Cam said in one of the music threads about preludes and postludes

if the expression of popular piety is a procession . . . which for sake of convenience and my tired feet, ends at the door of the Church . . . that procession has not "changed" the liturgy since it precedes the liturgy

Is that a fair statement, or have I grossly oversimplified?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Jun 18 2005, 09:57 AM']following from something Cam said in one of the music threads about preludes and postludes

if the expression of popular piety is a procession . . . which for sake of convenience and my tired feet, ends at the door of the Church . . . that procession has not "changed" the liturgy since it precedes the liturgy

Is that a fair statement, or have I grossly oversimplified?
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The procession at the beginning of Mass and later before the Offertory are not popular devotions, ithey are instead liturgical actions of the [i]Christus totus[/i]. You yourself have read the [u]Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy[/u] so you know that popular devotional forms and pious practices are not to be blended with the liturgy. They are distinct and must remain distinct.

Any adaptations to the liturgy must be made by the proper ecclesiastical authorities, i.e., the diocesan bishop or the bishops conference, with the prior [i]recognitio[/i] of the Holy See.

[Jaime]

[quote]Moreover, the sensus fidelium is always a gift received and experienced under the guidance of the Magisterium, and must always be in conformity with the directives issued by those who have, by the will of Christ, received the sacred power of governance.[/quote]

This seems to infer that the sensus fidelium is a gift received only by the Magisterium. To that I would disagree. The gift can and usually is revealed to the congregation. It is then brought to the Magisterium for confirmation that this was truly revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Does that mean that congregations can just arbitrarily change liturgies? Of course not. But while Truth does not change, we do continue to grow in our understanding of Truth. The Holy Spirit is still at work. The Church is still growing in her understanding. This includes the liturgy.

As I've stated, before something is accepted formally as a part of Tradition, it begins as tradition.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 18 2005, 04:51 PM']This seems to infer that the sensus fidelium is a gift received only by the Magisterium.  To that I would disagree.  The gift can and usually is revealed to  the congregation.  It is then brought to the Magisterium for confirmation that this was truly revealed by the Holy Spirit. 
[. . .]
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No, that is not an implication of what I've said, because what I have said is taken from [u]Lumen Gentium[/u] (no. 12). The [i]sensus fidelium[/i] is not a parallel magisterium of the lay faithful, it is instead a gift of grace whereby the laity and the clergy assent to the teaching of the Church. Both the hierarchy and the laity participate in the [i]sensus fidelium[/i], so there cannot be any conflict between the hierarchy and the laity on this issue. Moreover, nothing I have said excludes the lay faithful's participation in the meditation upon divine revelation, it simply ensures that that meditation and any insights revealed by it are not made independently of the hierarchies proper oversight.

It is vital to remember that the [i]sensus fidelium[/i] is of the whole people of God, thus it does not exclude the possibility that certain individuals or groups of individuals within the Church could fall into error.

But all of this is beside the point, because the [i]sensus fidelium[/i] is not an organ of the Church with the authority to make adaptations to the Divine Liturgy. The norms for making adaptations within the Roman Rite are contained in the Constitution [u]Sacrosanctum Concilium[/u] and the Latin Rite [u]Code of Canon Law[/u].

[journeyman]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 18 2005, 06:13 PM']The procession at the beginning of Mass and later before the Offertory are not popular devotions, ithey are instead liturgical actions of the [i]Christus totus[/i].  You yourself have read the [u]Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy[/u] so you know that popular devotional forms and pious practices are not to be blended with the liturgy.  They are distinct and must remain distinct.

Any adaptations to the liturgy must be made by the proper ecclesiastical authorities, i.e., the diocesan bishop or the bishops conference, with the prior [i]recognitio[/i] of the Holy See.
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I'm sorry I wasn't clear. Feast of Corpus Christi (para 160) - there is a procession outside the church . . . through the streets . . . but as presented in the Directory is after the Mass . . . I thought I had read some descriptions of the procession being before the Mass (perhaps here on PM?)

Advent procession (para 99) ??

Palm Sunday procession (at our parish, precedes the Mass) (para 139)

These processions take place outside the context of the Mass, but may be so closely related to it in the eyes of the participants that they appear as a portion, as it either precedes or follows the Mass proper . . . which is why I asked if it could be equated with the prelude or postlude in the musical sense - as Cam noted in the music thread that the "strict" requirements of sacred music were not as applicable to the prelude and postlude (I think that was the "Silent Night composed for and played on the guitar" discussion)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 18 2005, 04:51 PM'][. . .]

Does that mean that congregations can just arbitrarily change liturgies?  Of course not.  But while Truth does not change, we do continue to grow in our understanding of Truth.  The Holy Spirit is still at work.  The Church is still growing in her understanding.  This includes the liturgy. 

As I've stated, before something is accepted formally as a part of Tradition, it begins as tradition.
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Are you asserting that the local congregation has authority to make adaptations to the Rite of the Mass? If so, please supply the authoritative documents which support your contention.

The liturgy is not a private prayer of the priest, nor is it the prayer of any particular congregation in isolation from the universal Church; instead it is the prayer of the whole Church, and as such it is for the Supreme Magisterium, or as determined by law, the local Ordinary, to make adaptations to the rite. Moreover, adaptations to the rite should be made only for a good reasons, and again only by the proper ecclesiastical authorities.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Jun 18 2005, 05:22 PM']I'm sorry I wasn't clear.  Feast of Corpus Christi  (para 160) - there is a procession outside the church . . . through the streets . . . but as presented in the Directory is after the Mass . . . I thought I had read some descriptions of the procession being before the Mass (perhaps here on PM?)

Advent procession (para 99) ??

Palm Sunday procession (at our parish, precedes the Mass) (para 139)

These processions take place outside the context of the Mass, but may be so closely related to it in the eyes of the participants that they appear as a portion, as it either precedes or follows the Mass proper .  .  .  which is why I asked if it could be equated with the prelude or postlude in the musical sense - as Cam noted in the music thread that the "strict" requirements of sacred music were not as applicable to the prelude and postlude (I think that was the "Silent Night composed for and played on the guitar" discussion)
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If the procession is a part of the liturgy of the Church, that is, if it is found within the Roman Missal, then it is not [i]per se[/i] a popular devotion, it is instead a liturgical action.

If it takes place outside of Mass, then it is not a part of the liturgy.

[Apotheoun]

The procession on Palm / Passion Sunday is contained within the Roman Missal (Sacramentary, pages 122-125), and various rites are prescribed in association with it, including certain liturgical prayers of the priest. Thus, it is a part of the rite of the Mass for that celebration, certainly it is not a vital or central element of the liturgy of that day, and so it can be dispensed with, but it is not purely a paraliturgical service. In this sense it is related to the opening procession of the Mass, which it replaces. In addition, there are other rubrics surrounding this liturgical action, including some which indicate when the action can or cannot be done.

The Roman Missal (Sacramentary, pages 348-349) gives no description of the procession of the Eucharistic Body of Jesus as a part of the Rite of the Mass for that day; therefore, that procession is a paraliturgical action, i.e., it is a devotional practice.

[journeyman]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 18 2005, 06:51 PM']This seems to infer that the sensus fidelium is a gift received only by the Magisterium.  To that I would disagree.  The gift can and usually is revealed to  the congregation.  It is then brought to the Magisterium for confirmation that this was truly revealed by the Holy Spirit. 

Does that mean that congregations can just arbitrarily change liturgies?  Of course not.  But while Truth does not change, we do continue to grow in our understanding of Truth.  The Holy Spirit is still at work.  The Church is still growing in her understanding.  This includes the liturgy. 

As I've stated, before something is accepted formally as a part of Tradition, it begins as tradition.
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Back to "hand holding" . . . I don't think it is going to qualify as sensus fidelium because there are a lot of people who don't find it appropriate. I personally think that actions within the rite should have some bearing on the language at that point in the rite . . . and the "communal" portion of the liturgy comes later with the sign of peace . . . but that's just me.

I've seen the practice in several churches - all in my diocese, but others have mentioned it also, so it is spread out - or spreading

As long as you have to ask for a head count, it isn't "universal" . . . if it spreads to the point that you have to ask the opposite . . . is anyone "NOT" doing it . . . then you've got universality, and as hot stuff notes, (little t) tradition.

Just as I don't think the Church in the Middle Ages required the less literate worshipers to pray the rosary during Mass (didn't understand Latin, were not allowed anywhere near the front, what else was there for the poor publican to do?) . . . , the practice started in the laity and the practice spread . . . today, the Church has to remind people that it is not appropriate to pray the rosary during the Mass (Cam touched on this in distinction between participation (activa vs actuosa?) . . . popular practice, expressly proscribed

like it says on the bumper stickers, stuff happens . . . sometimes it sticks and sometimes it spreads . . . when does stuff become tradition

(broke my own rule - I've got two questions going on the thread)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='journeyman' date='Jun 18 2005, 05:47 PM']Back to "hand holding" . . . I don't think it is going to qualify as sensus fidelium because there are a lot of people who don't find it appropriate.  I personally think that actions within the rite should have some bearing on the language at that point in the rite . . . and the "communal" portion of the liturgy comes later with the sign of peace . . . but that's just me.
[. . .]
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The [i]sensus fidelium[/i] is irrelevant to the question of whether or not hand holding is permitted during the recitation of the Our Father.

[journeyman]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Jun 18 2005, 07:54 PM']The [i]sensus fidelium[/i] is irrelevant to the question of whether or not hand holding is permitted during the recitation of the Our Father.
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today, I agree - 40 years from now if it has spread to six continents and the bishops still haven't spoken - I wonder

[Jaime]

[quote]Are you asserting that the local congregation has authority to make adaptations to the Rite of the Mass? If so, please supply the authoritative documents which support your contention.[/quote]

Well now that's a tricky question. Its not a yes or no answer. You've already quoted where "with the permission of the bishop" there can be subtle changes. Can a congregation substitute the second reading with a native american prayer just because they want to? Of course not

Let me pose a question to you. Do you believe that the liturgy is now free from growth? That there will be no more nuances or changes implemented ever?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 18 2005, 06:20 PM']Well now that's a tricky question.  Its not a yes or no answer. You've already quoted where "with the permission of the bishop" there can be subtle changes.  Can a congregation substitute the second reading with a native american prayer just because they want to?  Of course not
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Can they substitute a native American prayer for a reading with the approval of the bishop?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 18 2005, 06:20 PM']Let me pose a question to you.  Do you believe that the liturgy is now free from growth?  That there will be no more nuances or changes implemented ever?
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No, what I am saying is that any adaptations made to the liturgy of the Roman Rite must be made by the legitimate ecclesiastical authorities, i.e., the diocesan bishop or the bishops conference, with the prior [i]recognitio[/i] of the Apostolic See.

Thus, local parishes are not free to just wing it and start doing whatever they feel is a good thing during the liturgy. As an example, suppose there is a congregation that wants to hold hands at a particular point during the liturgy, in such a situation the pastor of the parish should approach the bishop and express this vital need for an adaptation to the rite of the Mass, and then the bishop, after consulting the Holy See and receiving its [i]recognitio[/i], should issue a particular norm permitting that practice in his diocese.

[Jaime]

A bishop would never approve of that

Edited June 19, 2005 by jaime