What To Do About My Grandfather?

[mulls]

i would go with him.

explain in advance as politely as possible why you won't be receiving commmunion. maybe you should also explain your sensitivity to his church in advance, concerning all of the anti-catholic stuff.

if somebody i cared about invited me to go to Mass with them, i would go. i would explain my beliefs to them in advance so that there would be no confusion.

there's a protestant perspective for ya.

God bless.

Edited November 12, 2003 by mulls

[Carrie]

Good Friday, this is just a thought, but maybe telling your grandfather you are Catholic is not such a bad idea. He may be anti-Catholic but I'm sure he's not anti-Nathan and would be willing to hear your reasons for being Catholic.

As was suggested earlier, maybe he can attend Mass with you and you can attend his services with him. This way he can see that you are being open with him and he may be open with you in return.

Just my .02 cents

[KennC]

This particular church of Christ has communion every Sunday.

Good Friday;

Thank you for the news, ?I didn't know that? ... my experience tends towards the local Churches here.

Peace, Ken

[Thomas Michael]

Just to let you know... not ALL Churches of Christ are anti-Catholic. The church my wife grew up with (a Church of Christ in a small Texas town) respects the Catholic faith and they're always friendly to me whenever we attend.

[PedroX]

Nathan,

The Holy Father in his last encyclical (released Holy Week 2003) urged us not to attend Protestant services where communion is served. He stated that even our attendance gives false impressions of unity that does not yet (please God, soon!) exist.

As a convert I know that the few times I have returned to my old church everybody wanted to bring me back into the fold, and those visits simply resulted in even more hurt feelings.

I will pray for you and for your Grandfather.

peace...

[Good Friday]

I'm going to answer many of you in one post, starting with...

Is there any other memeber of the family that can accompany him instead of you?

Then you would feel free to do other activities with him, instead of something church related.

Does he really want Church time, or time with you?

Can you offfer to spend Sundays with him other than Church time?

Attending church is required in the church of Christ as long as one is physically able, so he feels not only that he wants to go to church but also that he should go. Much as a Catholic would feel that he/she not only wants to go to Mass, but should go to Mass. So I think, to answer your question, that this doubles as church time and time with me.

Really, there is no one else in my family willing to go. My aunt and her family are very secular, and as many of you know my mother is an active lesbian. If there's anything the church of Christ hates more than a Catholic, it's an active homosexual. Nevertheless, my mom did offer to go with him last Wednesday when I was sick with sinus problems, and he declined, so it looks as if he's only willing to go with me. Mysteriously, he didn't call here about it tonight, so maybe he changed his mind about wanting to go back. I don't know.

Now Ironmonk...

This could be a great opportunity to correct the misunderstandings of the Church. You could at least plant seeds.

I've thought of that. My situation is somewhat similar to yours, in that I feel that my grandmother was somehow Catholic by desire. But my grandfather is a little different. I'll have to see how it works out.

Ellenita -- Thank you for all your comments and your support. They're very much appreciated, and rest assured that I will be very gentle in discussing the differences between his church and the Catholic Church when the time comes.

And Anna...

If your grandparents always attended services together, going alone will be particularly difficult for your granddad. He'll feel the loss all the heavier, knowing that she's with God, and he's left here, alone in the pew.

They did always attend services together. After she became too ill to go, he stopped going because he didn't want to go without her and also because she needed round-the-clock care and he provided that care for most of her illness. Only the past few months have been spent in a nursing home, as many of you know. But even while she was in the nursing home, he didn't go back, probably because he didn't feel right about being able to go but her not being able to go. Even now, he is hesitant to go. Since her passing he has been talking about going, but has declined every single Wednesday and Sunday since then.

I do have one novel suggestion, though, begin tearing down the wall...let him know that that wonderful priest who came to visit gramma in the hospital is your Catholic priest, a very caring and holy man of God.

I had intended to do this when the time was right. He knows for certain that the priest is a Catholic priest, and he knows that the priest knows me somehow (because Father asked him if he was my grandfather one day when he went to visit my grandmother). I'm sure he's connected the dots, but right now we seem to be operating under a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. When I feel that the time is right and that it won't just serve to upset him more than he already is, I do intend to spell it out for him.

And gently, ever so gently, invite him to attend Holy Mass with you. Mornings at your church, evenings at his?

This will take some time. I'm sure he won't even hear of it for quite some time. I have to be patient as God is patient. Like Amy Grant says in her Christian song turned pop: "It takes a little time sometimes to get your feet back on the ground. It takes a little time sometimes to get the Titanic turned back around." The anti-Catholicism that has been applied to him his whole life -- first of all as a secular southerner, then as a member of the church of Christ -- is like the Titanic. It's not going to change overnight, if at all. But I will suggest this when and if the time is right.

Maybe it would be a good thing for your priest to just stop by sometime and see how grand dad is managing, that is, if the priest can spare the time. I'm very impressed that he took the time to visit your gramma and attend her wake; he may have a special gift that will be seen and appreciated by other members of your family....

One very special thing about my priest is that he visited my grandmother and prayed over her several times in her final days. Aside from a visit from a female Episcopalian priest during my grandmother's first hospital visit (which we were very grateful for despite our religious differences), Father was the only clergyman to visit my grandmother at all in her final days. The clergymen from the church of Christ did not. Had Father not visited, then no clergyman would have visited her at all except for the Episcopalian priest during her first hospital visit months ago.

Of course, my grandmother was not Catholic, so it's amazing to me that Father visited her at all. He has so much to do already, that I'm so happily surprised that he could take time out from his busy schedule to visit someone who was not a member of his parish nor even a Catholic. He is, by far, the best priest I have ever met.

Now Donna...

Does anyone here know we must not participate (I did not say attend) in a false religion's service? As in weddings and funerals being the usual reason a Catholic would be in this situation.

This is a tough situation. And it sounds unusual.

Have you no good priest to ask?

You're right, I should ask my priest, and I probably will the next time I go to Confession. But that won't be until the weekend, and I thought I was going to need an answer today. Donna, I'm not doubting what you've said, so please don't take it that way, this is an honest question... what's the difference in attending a service and participating in one? How would one not participate? I personally intended to pray silent Hail Mary's through the whole service.

I pray for your discernment.

Thank you, Donna. I appreciate that, I really do. I also appreciate the benefit of your experience, knowing both that you're a convert and that you're a traditionalist. Although I don't agree with everything traditionalist, I know that some parts of it have a lot of wisdom. I was actually hoping for your perspective on this, and had even thought of asking for you by name, but I didn't want you to feel as if I was singling you out because you are a traditionalist.

Mulls...

i would go with him.

explain in advance as politely as possible why you won't be receiving commmunion. maybe you should also explain your sensitivity to his church in advance, concerning all of the anti-catholic stuff.

if somebody i cared about invited me to go to Mass with them, i would go. i would explain my beliefs to them in advance so that there would be no confusion.

there's a protestant perspective for ya.

Good advice, Mulls. Thank you, it's truly appreciated. Perhaps if I do attend, him knowing full well that I disagree, then he will be more open to attending Mass with me sometime. Anyway, thanks for the advice!

And Carrie...

Good Friday, this is just a thought, but maybe telling your grandfather you are Catholic is not such a bad idea. He may be anti-Catholic but I'm sure he's not anti-Nathan and would be willing to hear your reasons for being Catholic.

That's a good point, Carrie. It also made me think that perhaps if he knows someone he loves is Catholic, he will reconsider the notions he has about the Catholic Church. Demonizing something and thinking of it as absolutely evil is a bit more difficult when someone you love very much is involved in it. Maybe telling him would soften him toward the Church a bit so that he won't hate it so much.

Now Thomas...

Just to let you know... not ALL Churches of Christ are anti-Catholic. The church my wife grew up with (a Church of Christ in a small Texas town) respects the Catholic faith and they're always friendly to me whenever we attend.

That's good to know, Thomas. I didn't mean to imply that they all are. As I said, the churches of Christ are very autonomous and no one is exactly like another. I'm glad to hear that the members of the church of Christ in your neck of the woods aren't anti-Catholic.

Finally, Pedro...

The Holy Father in his last encyclical (released Holy Week 2003) urged us not to attend Protestant services where communion is served. He stated that even our attendance gives false impressions of unity that does not yet (please God, soon!) exist.

For the sake of my grandfather whom the Bible calls me to love and honor, I feel that I must attend if he asks me to, unless the Holy Father has forbidden Catholics not to attend Protestant services where communion is served. If that is the case, I will obey. If not, then I must believe that the Holy Father has only urged us not to and not forbidden it because he recognizes that there are some circumstances where it may be necessary and even beneficial to attend Protestant services, even services with communion. As many here have pointed out, attending these services could help me to plant a seed in their church, and even moreso in my grandfather's heart.

That said, I'm hoping to restrict my attendance at the church of Christ only to Bible study on Wednesdays, because it is not a formal church service with the "liturgy" (if you can call it that) that exists on Sundays. It's simply a Bible study held in the church. Communion is not involved.

I do thank you for your advice, though, Pedro. If this were not my grandfather and even if it was him and my grandmother had not just passed away, attending this church again would be out of the question for me. But these are extremely special circumstances, and my grandfather needs all the love and support we can give him right now. But I do thank you for your advice, and like Donna I value your experience as a convert.

If it's not too much trouble for you, can you find for me where the Holy Father urges us not to attend Protestant services with communion? I want to be sure that he hasn't forbidden it, because if he has I intend to obey regardless of whose feelings may be hurt.

Edited November 13, 2003 by Good Friday

[BLAZEr]

Nathan,

The Holy Father in his last encyclical (released Holy Week 2003) urged us not to attend Protestant services where communion is served.  He stated that even our attendance gives false impressions of unity that does not yet (please God, soon!) exist. 

As a convert I know that the few times I have returned to my old church everybody wanted to bring me back into the fold, and those visits simply resulted in even more hurt feelings. 

I will pray for you and for your Grandfather.

peace...

ummm . .. I doubt this is true. Can you give a quote. I know that the Holy Father encourages us to pray with non-catholics. He himself did it at Assisi, even with non-Christians, even with those who don't believe in One God . . . some how I'm skeptical . . .

I do know that we are not to receive communion or be present at events where Catholics and Protestants are receiving communion together, but just attending a non-Catholic service? I don't recommend it, but I can't imagine its forbidden.

Help me out, teach me with the Church's words.

[jasJis]

Nathan,

I feel I just have to put in my opinion. Simply, if it was my Grandfather, I would be going. Your grandfather is a Christian. He believes some of the same Truths as you and the Catholic Church. It would be a Christain witness as to what Christian Truths are in Catholics as well. You can attend a Prot service with communion, but not partake in it because it represents a false unity based on a misunderstanding or erroneous concept of the Eucharist. But going to praise and worship should be similar. It does not fulfill your Catholic obligation on a Sunday, so you would have to do both. Just think how wonderful it would be though, if your mom went with!

It is about worshiping God. Protestant Christians do so to. They are not necessarily about being anti-Catholic first! I think it would be very respectful and supportive and a Catholic Christian witness to attend with your Grandfather. You can do so and still stand for Full Christianity in the Catholic Faith. With God's graces, you may also serve to destroy myths and false beliefs about Catholicism. Seek to show and reinforce the Christian Truths that are shared by both Christian Denominations.

I will add your Grandfather to my prayers.

jasJis

[Donna]

nathan, howdy. gosh, you're a good grandson.

just what you intend [pray silent hail mary's throughout] is what i did at my cousin's funeral. believe me, i wanted to be stuck in the back of that little ol church, but i had to sit w/ the family. even poor fr. o'connor says we certainly can attend wedding/funeral, but to join in [head and heart and body, too, i suppose] would in effect be giving credence to a sect, not to catholicism, the truth.

having said only that, inferring nothing nasty to anyone, or dissing the seperated brethren, or folks for ignorance thru no fault of their own, clearly, in my lay opinion, this is an unusual situation that cannot be blown off. [altho maybe grandpa, thru divine providence has backed off]. also, there exists a doctrine of necessary occassions of sin. and i'm sorry non-catholics here on the board and perhaps others, but even loving your family and having duties to honor them, there can still be bad occassions for catholics.

can't 'member if i'd a baby at that funeral - probably. which would excuse me from standing as part of the service. and i prayed the rosary for my cousin there.

once upon a time [blazer] the church clearly spelled out as being sin against the first commandment [mortal sin, that is], to participate in false worship. [mulls, no offense]. ask the converts on their way in, what it was like going to that empty building bereft of the blessed sacrament. and nathan understands this.

eternal father, i offer thee the adorable face of thy beloved son for nathan to know just what to do, and unite his whole family, in thee, in holy church, and bless him exceedingly.

[PedroX]

Nathan,

The Holy Father has only asked (urged) us not to. He did not forbid it. Donna has spoken many words of wisdom. Here is the link to his encyclica Holy Week Encylclical

Please do not take my words to be offensive. I know how hard these family situations can be. My father is a fundmentalist pastor.

Donna,

Thank you as always for calling us to such a high standard. Your words are an encouragement to us all.

peace...

[Donna]

Pedrox...

Your father is a fundamentalist Pastor??!!?

If you would ever care to tell your story (on a different thread, of course), I for one would be greatly interested.

God bless!

(no hijackin' here B)

[BLAZEr]

Nathan,

The Holy Father has only asked (urged) us not to.  He did not forbid it.  Donna has spoken many words of wisdom.  Here is the link to his encyclica Holy Week Encylclical

Please do not take my words to be offensive.  I know how hard these family situations can be.  My father is a fundmentalist pastor. 

Donna,

Thank you as always for calling us to such a high standard.  Your words are an encouragement to us all.

peace...

I've read it. I didn't see what you said. Please point it out to me. Thanks.

[BLAZEr]

This is as close as I can find to what you say:

30. The Catholic Church's teaching on the relationship between priestly ministry and the Eucharist and her teaching on the Eucharistic Sacrifice have both been the subject in recent decades of a fruitful dialogue in the area of ecumenism. We must give thanks to the Blessed Trinity for the significant progress and convergence achieved in this regard, which lead us to hope one day for a full sharing of faith. Nonetheless, the observations of the Council concerning the Ecclesial Communities which arose in the West from the sixteenth century onwards and are separated from the Catholic Church remain fully pertinent: “The Ecclesial Communities separated from us lack that fullness of unity with us which should flow from Baptism, and we believe that especially because of the lack of the sacrament of Orders they have not preserved the genuine and total reality of the Eucharistic mystery. Nevertheless, when they commemorate the Lord's death and resurrection in the Holy Supper, they profess that it signifies life in communion with Christ and they await his coming in glory”.62

The Catholic faithful, therefore, while respecting the religious convictions of these separated brethren, must refrain from receiving the communion distributed in their celebrations, so as not to condone an ambiguity about the nature of the Eucharist and, consequently, to fail in their duty to bear clear witness to the truth. This would result in slowing the progress being made towards full visible unity. Similarly, it is unthinkable to substitute for Sunday Mass ecumenical celebrations of the word or services of common prayer with Christians from the aforementioned Ecclesial Communities, or even participation in their own liturgical services. Such celebrations and services, however praiseworthy in certain situations, prepare for the goal of full communion, including Eucharistic communion, but they cannot replace it.

The fact that the power of consecrating the Eucharist has been entrusted only to Bishops and priests does not represent any kind of belittlement of the rest of the People of God, for in the communion of the one body of Christ which is the Church this gift redounds to the benefit of all

[Good Friday]

First to Donna -- Thanks again for your response, and for your kind words about how good a grandson I am. In fact I am not so great a grandson, and after learning of the domestic violence in my grandfather's past I said some very nasty and un-Christian things to him that I still very much regret. But I do love him despite those stressful times when my grandmother was ill and the finding that he had been an abuser, primarily because he is not that person anymore and has not been that person since before I was even born. So now I want to help him in his time of need, since I only contributed to the weight of his cross during my grandmother's illness.

Even if the Church allowed me to participate in the service -- I'm not sure whether it does or whether it doesn't -- I had no intention of participation. I intend simply to silently pray Hail Mary's throughout the service, standing when it is appropriate to stand out of respect for their custom. I've decided to pray the Hail Mary's for three reasons. First, I will be praying Hail Mary's for the conversion of the members of that church and in reparation for whatever blasphemies they may speak against the Church and/or Our Lady. Secondly, I will be praying Hail Mary's so that I will not be participating in the services that are so foreign to the Divine Liturgy that has come to us from the Apostles. Thirdly, I will be praying Hail Mary's so that I will not be hearing the words spoken by the pastor, so that my faith cannot be in any way swayed. I recognize that my faith is relatively weak, and even though I don't think the church of Christ could sway me at all because it never has in the past -- I won't let my guard down because Satan chooses those opportunities to attack us most.

My grandmother had a church of Christ funeral, too, so I know what you mean. All the non-Catholics were saying what a great service it was, and when asked I replied: "It was good." It was good, but that was all that could be said about it from my perspective. Gone were the prayers for the intercession of the saints. Gone were the prayers for the soul of the departed. Gone even were the mentions of the Beatific Vision, replaced with a heretical belief that the departed are "sleeping" and will be awakened at the end of time to be judged, rather than immediately going to their judgement. Gone were any songs, any symbols. Perhaps most shocking to my system... gone were the Sacraments, the Mass, and the Blessed Sacrament. It seemed horrific to me that the Blessed Sacrament would not be present at a time when He was needed the most. So all I could say about the service was: "It was good."

jasJis -- I appreciate your words of encouragement and support. I will try to stress the similarities between denominations, although I must admit -- as you've probably seen above -- that the differences are never so apparent to me than when I'm involved in a church of Christ worship service. I acknowledge, of course, that they are praising God, and that's very important. But it's so difficult for me as a convert to the Catholic Faith who was first interested in it because of the Liturgy to go back to a non-liturgical church. But I know that true ecumenism and the salvation of souls is far more important than my personal difficulties, so I'll do my best to represent the Catholic Faith well.

As for my mom, she comes to Mass with me from time to time. She would sooner come to Mass with me than go to the church of Christ. Like me, she loves the Mass for its beauty. And she finds the Catholic Church tolerable because even though the Church does condemn the homosexual lifestyle and she is well aware that it does, the Church is not nearly as carping in its condemnation of that lifestyle as the Protestant churches are. The Church is far more compassionate than many of the Protestant churches, particularly the church of Christ. Many church of Christ members, at least at this church, believe that not only the lifestyle is a sin, but that the actual orientation is a sin as well. To some of them, an active homosexual and a chaste homosexual are no different. So my mom would much sooner come to Mass at a Catholic church where God's mercy is more clearly expressed. I thank God for that, and pray often that she will eventually accept the Church's truths on homosexuality so that she can become Catholic.

Pedro -- I'm sorry if it seemed as if I took your words as offensive, I definitely didn't. In fact, I thought under normal circumstances it's sound advice. Under normal circumstances, I would be more than willing to heed the Holy Father's urging not to attend Protestant services with communion. But as I've mentioned, these aren't normal circumstances. So I'll attend, but with great care for my soul and for the souls of others by not encouraging any kind of false unity.

As for your father being a fundamentalist pastor... wow. Praise God that you found the Catholic Church and had the courage to be a part of it.

Anyway, I thank everyone who has replied on this thread. I feel that the Holy Spirit has spoken through all of you in different ways, to give me different but not contradictory pieces of advice -- all of which have helped me and will continue to help me. Thank you all for the help.

[Faithful heart]

I would go, maybe after you could tell him about your beliefs and why they are so important to you. I think he loves you and will come to understand who you are. Does your grandfather still show love to your mother. I am sure he does not agree with her life choices, but does he still embrace her? If he does then I am sure he will do the same to you. (not that being a Catholic and being gay are the same) I know it is hard and I will pray that this will be easy a possible for you. God bless you!