ICTHUS Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 Also, one more thing. Kdwolf said, I suppose, at that time, whatever mortal sins you committed would be forgiven if you gave alms to the poor. This is incorrect. The Old Testament lays out the procedure for obtaining forgiveness of sin in Exodus 29:14, Leviticus 4, Leviticus 5, 6-7, and a whole bunch of other places. And none of them involve almsgiving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seek Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 I don't think the verse implies that one is forgiven by giving alms. Here is the definition of the word atone from dictionary.com... To make amends, as for a sin or fault: These crimes must be atoned for. It seems that this particular verse and the preceeding verses are making a point about performing good works as to counter act your sins. Its not enough to be sorry, make it right. You stole something, now give it back. Make amends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 Here dude, read this. Go to the part about the Church Father Cyprian. http://matt1618.freeyellow.com/page5.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 Ugggg this is difficult. Does anyone know what language Sirach was originally written in? Is it in the Septuagint (Cuz if it is, it would be in Greek) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 Do we have another instance in Scripture where the word "atone" or "atonement" is used in another sense besides setting us right with God? Because the way I see it, if the verse is saying that we can be put right with GOD through our own works, then its heretical and shouldnt be in the Bible. However, I might be persuaded that the atonement spoken of in this verse is rather an undoing or a helping to alleviate the temporal consequences of sin, rather than the Eternal consequences (Death) which only blood (Jesus' blood) can save us from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 I'm looking at 1 Peter 4:8 in the Greek right now, and the language it uses is really really strong. pro pantwn thn eiV eautouV agaphn ektenh econteV, oti agaph kaluptei plhqoV amartiwn. "Before all things, among yourselves have fervent love, because love covers a multitude of sins" The word "kaluptei" (kaluptei) means "to cover" and is used, word for word, in that sense, in Luke 8:16 in the context of covering a lamp with a jar. Hence, when it speaks of love covering a multitude of sins, it really means covering them from sight so that they can no longer be seen. The picture is becoming more clear now, however, I'm still a bit confused. Could someone see if the word "atone" is used in any other context other than setting us right with God, in Scripture? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that almsgiving would be similar to old testament sacrifices and such.. New Testament makes it pretty clear that justification comes through faith, and I read into it that their sacrifices are made in faith.. it's about the heart, but the actions can be a sign of the heart. Same could go for almsgiving I suppose. True, justification comes through faith, but if you say "through faith alone ," as Luther and other Protestants do, that's heresy. "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" James 2:24. Sola Fide (Faith Alone) is one of the "pillars" that supports Protestantism. And it's wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katholikos Posted November 14, 2003 Share Posted November 14, 2003 (edited) Ugggg this is difficult. Does anyone know what language Sirach was originally written in? Is it in the Septuagint (Cuz if it is, it would be in Greek) Sirach was originally written in Hebrew. The Septuagint is a Greek translation of the Hebrew for all "books" except the Wisdom of Solomon and 2 Maccabees, which were originally written in Greek. Hebrew fragments of Sirach have been found among the Dead Sea Scrolls. P.S. The Hebrew text of Brauch, Judith, 1 Maccabees, Ecclesiasticus (Sirach) and Tobit was lost to posterity sometime after the Greek Septuagint translation (the Alexandrian Canon) was made. Wisdom and 2 Macc are the only Greek originals. These seven books and parts of Esther and Daniel are not in the Hebrew (Palestinian) Canon, rejected by the rabbis c. 100 A.D. because they were in Greek, and no Hb text was then available. 16 centuries later, Luther later adopted the Hebrew Canon as his Bible. I guess God could not read or write Greek. :P Edited November 14, 2003 by Katholikos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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