ICTHUS Posted November 11, 2003 Share Posted November 11, 2003 Hey all, I was looking at this website on the Deuterocanonical books (it's Protestant) and I noticed the following...(I wont quote the verses, but instead give you the references) II Macc 14:39-46 - Justifies suicide Sirach 3:30 - teaches almsgiving as a way for sin to be expunged, whereas in Leviticus it is written that there can be no remission of sins without the shedding of blood. Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20 (I'll type this one out) "As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot, or rather, being good, I entered into an undefiled body" It seems to me as if this teaches reincarnation. Can anyone help me out here? Although, I can see weaknesses in their argument in that they argue that Tobit 6:17 teaches witchcraft and sorcery. I would respond that it is entirely plausible that the burning fish liver odour could be offensive to the demon. If we see in the Book of Revelation that the odour of burning incense is pleasing to God, then it makes sense that the odour of burning flesh could be offensive to demons. I mean, it also makes sense in the fact that Demons are banished to everlasting torment in Hell anyway, so maybe the smell of the burning liver reminded it of its eternal destiny? Prehaps I'm just postulating here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 (edited) 2 Maccabees 14:39-46 - I don't see how it justifies suicide. It doesn't say that suicide is right, it says that the person attempting suicide thought it was OK. Saying otherwise would be a wacky interpretation. Sirach 3:30 - Isn't this a form of what the Church calls "penance"? Wisdom 8:19-20 - Don't see how this has anything to do with reincarnation. Read the footnotes from the NAB on these verses: [19-20] Here the sacred writer mentions first bodily, then spiritual, excellence. To make it plain that the latter is the governing factor in the harmonious development of the human person, he then reverses the order. Here is just one of many sites you can find with cross-references between the New Testament and the deuterocanonical books. I believe there are other posts here with a lot of information regarding the validity of these Scriptures. http://www.scripturecatholic.com/deuterocanon.html Edited November 12, 2003 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seek Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Wisdom of Solomon 8:19-20 (I'll type this one out) "As a child I was naturally gifted, and a good soul fell to my lot, or rather, being good, I entered into an undefiled body" It seems to me as if this teaches reincarnation. At first he seems to say that because he was a good kid he was given a good soul. He then decides that it is more likely that he was a good kid because he had a good soul. I don't think the meaning is meant to be literal. Its poetry... its Wisdom. I don't read anything into it about reincarnation. II Macc 14:39-46 - Justifies suicide I think thedude is right. This passage does not condone suicide as much as it describes Razis' character. He was a martyr. Besides, 1 Samuel 31:4 (not a deuterocanonical book) has almost the same concept. Thats all I got. I hope it helps you. Peace of Christ be with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 these are some of my favorite books! :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeraMaria Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 these are some of my favorite books! :wub: hey Al... why don't you ever come to the phatmass chat?? :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 They teach falsehood. Remember, anyone can take verses out of context and twist the meaning. Only the Catholic Church has the proper interpretation. The fact that Jesus and the Apostles had no problem with those books should tell you something. My guess is that your talking to nothing again... Nothing good comes from nothing. He speaks w/forked tongue. He openly denies the Church founded by Christ. Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 Thanks guys. I still take issue with Sirach 3:30 though. It's talking about sin being ATONED for. Not the temporal effects of sin being undone, but being ATONED for... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 12, 2003 Author Share Posted November 12, 2003 They teach falsehood. Remember, anyone can take verses out of context and twist the meaning. Only the Catholic Church has the proper interpretation. The fact that Jesus and the Apostles had no problem with those books should tell you something. My guess is that your talking to nothing again... Nothing good comes from nothing. He speaks w/forked tongue. He openly denies the Church founded by Christ. Your Servant in Christ, ironmonk No, I'm not talking to mustbenothing. I was trying to familiarize myself with arguments against the deuterocanonical books, and I came here to get some of my questions answered. Chill..it's all good! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdewolf2 Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 I still take issue with Sirach 3:30 though. It's talking about sin being ATONED for. Not the temporal effects of sin being undone, but being ATONED for... Sirach 3:29 - 30 -- Water quenches a flaming fire, and alms atone for sin. He who does a kindness is remembered afterward; when he falls, he finds a support. The NAB has a note which states: Mercy and kindness toward those in misfortune atone for sin and endear a man to God and to his fellow men. I suppose you have a problem with that because it is the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross which atones for sin. However, haven't you considered the possibility that almsgiving atones for sin in conjunction with or subordinately to the passion of our Lord? What I mean is, apart from Jesus' death, there would be no atonement for anyone. No works of ours would be able to save us. However, when our works, such as almsgiving, are united with faith in Christ's atoning death, then they receive an atoning value. I don't think I could explain it better. You'd have to ask a theologian. I wouldn't take issue with God's word, though. If you do, God's word may take issue with you. It is wiser just to accept what you don't yet clearly understand, then to reject what you don't understand just because you don't understand it. Proverbs 3:5 (NIV): Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 (edited) Ah, n/m. Edited November 12, 2003 by Paladin D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undercover Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that almsgiving would be similar to old testament sacrifices and such.. New Testament makes it pretty clear that justification comes through faith, and I read into it that their sacrifices are made in faith.. it's about the heart, but the actions can be a sign of the heart. Same could go for almsgiving I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted November 12, 2003 Share Posted November 12, 2003 Why would the widow have donated her mite to the Temple, if not as a sacrificial offering? Any sacrificial gift is ultimately offered to the Father....Why? because He needs it? No, to help patch up the relationship with Him that we have wounded. Even if just giving alms to the poor to assist them in their need...the Father sees this act of charity and bestows grace. Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 13, 2003 Author Share Posted November 13, 2003 But what this seems to be saying is that if someone had a mortal sin on their soul and they went and gave alms to the poor, that their sin would be forgiven... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdewolf2 Posted November 13, 2003 Share Posted November 13, 2003 But what this seems to be saying is that if someone had a mortal sin on their soul and they went and gave alms to the poor, that their sin would be forgiven... Well, you have to take into account that this is in the Old Testament. The Church had not been instituted yet, and the sacrament of Confession was unknown. I suppose, at that time, whatever mortal sins you committed would be forgiven if you gave alms to the poor. If you commit a mortal sin now, you should definitely go to Confession, and not use almsgiving as a substitute, although I'm sure it would be a helpful in addition to the sacrament. I think all atonement is based on the sacrifice of Christ on the cross, even the sacrifices in the Old Testament. How can killing a goat or burning some sheep take away your sins? It makes no sense. Jesus Christ, who is true God and true Man is the only one who can take away our sins. He took away the sins of anyone who believed in Him, however obscurely, even in the Old Testament before His time, as the goats and sheeps were merely types foreshadowing His own sacrificial death. We have to remember we are not saved through faith alone, but through faith expressing itself in good works through love, or however St. Paul put it. St. James goes on and on about the necessity of good works. It's hard to miss. He says Abraham was justified by works, not by faith alone. Unless our faith bears fruit in good works, we will not be saved. Maybe that's the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ICTHUS Posted November 14, 2003 Author Share Posted November 14, 2003 Well, you have to take into account that this is in the Old Testament. The Church had not been instituted yet, and the sacrament of Confession was unknown. I suppose, at that time, whatever mortal sins you committed would be forgiven if you gave alms to the poor. No. Your argument is flawed. Hebrews 9:16-26 16In the case of a will,[4] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[5] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. 23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. Clearly, therefore, the shedding of blood accomplishes the forgiveness of sin, not almsgiving. I concur that almsgiving can teach humility and break an attachment to sin that exists, but it cannot atone for sin. I'm not saying the book is wrong..yet. But I definitely take issue with it in that it conflicts with the rest of Scripture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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