Patriotism

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='geetarplayer' date='Jun 3 2005, 11:39 PM'] Haha! Not that way, man. I'm really quite square. [/quote]
That's bogus dude! You like, totally, rock man! Don't let the MAN get you down, dude. He's like, stomping on your rights man. Hey...you got any weed man?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 3 2005, 08:01 AM']Thank you everyone!

(Still digesting, but I guess I don't have to give up my assisting with elections just yet.)
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Oh now helping with elections isn't just Patriotism it is a support of Democrac, which Claims Authority comes from the People instead of from God, Helping with elections is a completly differant issue altogether.

[Matty_boy]

I'd say that patriotism doesn't really have to do with the government at all. I think patriotism is both a common identity and a commitment to the preservation of that identity. As Americans, we have the value that we're hard workers especially when we're facing a challenge. We help each other out when we need it the most. We are all free to practice whichever religion we choose and are free to talk about it. So basically, patriotism is a virtue when you are standing up for the characteristics which you believe make your country great. I don't think that the USA is perfect, far from it in opinion, but there are certain things about the USA that are unique to the USA which make it the greatest nation on God's green Earth.

[Noel's angel]

I'm not a fan of patriotism myself-i think it's a very American thing. Sure, i love where I live and all that, but it isn't that important. I think Americans often take it too far and now people in other countries have a bad view of Americans and patriotism-it all seems a bit cheesy really

[Noel's angel]

oh, and if Americans love America so much, why do a lot of them want to be Irish????

[philothea]

Ha, NA!

I was tempted to put "Only if you're an American" as a choice but that's just too snarky...

And you know, if I wind up being a successful fantasy novelist, I have to move to Ireland. They all do.

[dspen2005]

I took a class this past spring semester on War, Terrorism and Patriotism. It was a Philosophy Topics course... it was this question that we discussed for the entire semester....

from this class i learned that patriotism being a philosophy/ism that is inherently emotional rather than a viewpoint based on reason, it is vital that differences be made between what some, including Walzer, call moderate patriotism and extreme patriotism....

Walzer -- his first name I cannot recall -- wrote a book called Just and Unjust War. it isn't too bad -- somewhat leftist, but generally it is 'ok'.

Edited June 9, 2005 by dspen2005

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jun 9 2005, 02:33 PM']I'm not a fan of patriotism myself-i think it's a very American thing.  Sure, i love where I live and all that, but it isn't that important.  I think Americans often take it too far and now people in other countries have a bad view of Americans and patriotism-it all seems a bit cheesy really
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Wow I guess all of those Irish who died fighting for Ireland where actually Americans? The Easter Rising, the I.R.B. the I. R. A., The Provos, I guess they were/are fighting for something other than their Country. Of course until recently Faith was all tied up with Country so you couldn't say it was love of Counrty seperate and distinct from love of their religion but certianly Patriotism was and is there.

[una_fide]

It isn't a yes or no thing, universal Justice or Charity must be first before patriotism, but otherwise patriotism is a virtue.

[Cam42]

The Vatican is the physical captial of our faith and the figurative and literal governance of our faith, depending on how we are using the term, Vatican. We who live in America are not American Catholics, but rather Catholics in America. Our faith should come first. Roman Catholics are not Americans first and a Catholic second, but vice versa. One should start thinking of oneself as a Catholic first and an American second. Which is eternal and which is temporal? Which gains salvation and which doesn’t.

Catholicism is not a “denomination.” Catholicism the the truth. Jesus Christ is the Church....the Church is Jesus Christ. It is only a teaching that is 2000 years old.

[quote]"Christ “is the head of the body, the Church.” He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father’s glory, “in everything he [is] preeminent,” especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things." (CCC 792)[/quote]

[quote]"What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church.” “To this Spirit of Christ, as an invisible principle, is to be ascribed the fact that all the parts of the body are joined one with the other and with their exalted head; for the whole Spirit of Christ is in the head, the whole Spirit is in the body, and the whole Spirit is in each of the members.” The Holy Spirit makes the Church “the temple of the living God.”" (CCC 797)[/quote]

There is a subtle difference in being American Catholic and a Catholic in America.

American Catholics: Those citizens of the United States who put their nationality before their faith. They choose to accept the Church’s teachings on their terms. Accepting what they want and denying what they don’t. Those who ascribe to this idea of being Catholic see themselves as being superior or equal in thought process to the heirarchy of the Church. They would see the Church be brought to democracy. They would see the Church as an ala carte invention that allows for total freedom of thought and assention of the will when it is convient to their ideals. (AmChurch Catholics)

Catholics in America: Those American citizens who put their faith first. They assent their will to the mind of the Church and then apply it to the country in which they live. They follow the precepts of the Church and they embrace all the Church has to offer. Once they have done that, then they can live their life in the US according to the laws of the land, second only to the laws of the Church, which co-exist in harmony. (Roman Catholics)

There is no salvation outside the Church. So being a Catholic in America does lead to salvation, because being Catholic is the only way to gain salvation.

[quote]" How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (CCC 846)[/quote]

Now, I am not saying that we should not be patriotic. Hardly. Support the United States of America. Support her to the fullest extent that she can be supported. This also does not allow for one to go off half-cocked and become a Democrat. Justice and right thinking also plays a part. What I am saying is that as a Catholic, our faith must come first. We can be great citizens because we are Catholic, not in spite of it. It is not the USA that will grant us eternal salvation, but rather the Church. They can and do exist in harmony. So, be patroitic. But also temper this patriotism in and with Catholicism.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='Jun 9 2005, 09:33 PM']I'm not a fan of patriotism myself-i think it's a very American thing.  Sure, i love where I live and all that, but it isn't that important.  I think Americans often take it too far and now people in other countries have a bad view of Americans and patriotism-it all seems a bit cheesy really
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Whilst I see your point I don't hink America has a monopoly on patriotism.

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 9 2005, 09:32 PM']. Of course until recently Faith was all tied up with Country [/quote]

until recently??? eh????

[Noel's angel]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Jun 9 2005, 09:32 PM']Wow I guess all of those Irish who died fighting for Ireland where actually Americans? The Easter Rising, the I.R.B. the I. R. A.,  The Provos, I guess they were/are fighting for something other than their Country. Of course until recently Faith was all tied up with Country so you couldn't say it was love of Counrty seperate and distinct from love of their religion but certianly Patriotism was and is there.
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Opinions were asked, you gave yours and I didn't attack you, I gave mine, let it be

[Matty_boy]

I agree with the idea that many Americans want to be Irish. However, the idea that patriotism is purely American is arguable. Most if not all of the Middle Eastern countries have patriotism, maybe not towards their country, but towards their religion. Many governments even encourage extreme "patriotism" (if you will) by imposing Sharia on the Muslim people, which makes the government into an active theocracy. (That's what was meant by the "separation of church and state", the church and the state not being ruled by the same group. Like Henry VIII who was king of england and the head of the "church" which he formed when he broke off from the Catholic Church because they wouldn't allow him to divorce.)

[Aloysius]

many Americans ARE Irish. since when are the Irish people stuck up snobs?

the Irish Constitution says: "the Irish nation cherishes its special affinity with people of Irish ancestry living abroad who share its cultural identity and heritage"

and Noel's Angel, he didn't attack you, he proved your point wrong. he proved that patriotism is not only American by citing the Irish. This is a debate table, not a state opinions and let them be table. You attempted to make the point that patriotism is an American thing, he proved you wrong because while it may have that connotation it is not an American thing-- we are talking about the virtuous love of your own land (such as Karol Wvoytiwa had for Poland)... something that is a fairly natural virtue.