Patriotism

[ironmonk]

[quote name='philothea' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:35 PM'] I have been curious about this since I arrived here. I do not yet have an opinion. [/quote]
Patriotism is a virtue... It is one of the Knights of Columbus pillars.

Patriotism is a part of piety... according to St. Thomas Aquinas.

Patriotism is loving one's country. If the country is going in the wrong direction, Catholics have a responsibility to try and correct the disorder.

We are children of our country and we must honor it.

I use to be unpatriotic, then I learned the truth as taught by the Church and changed for Christ.


[b]2199[/b]
The fourth commandment is addressed expressly to children in their relationship to their father and mother, because this relationship is the most universal. It likewise concerns the ties of kinship between members of the extended family. It requires honor, affection, and gratitude toward elders and ancestors. Finally, it extends to the duties of pupils to teachers, employees to employers, subordinates to leaders, citizens to their country, and to those who administer or govern it.

This commandment includes and presupposes the duties of parents, instructors, teachers, leaders, magistrates, those who govern, all who exercise authority over others or over a community of persons.

[b]2212[/b]
The fourth commandment illuminates other relationships in society. In our brothers and sisters we see the children of our parents; in our cousins, the descendants of our ancestors; in our fellow citizens, the children of our country; in the baptized, the children of our mother the Church; in every human person, a son or daughter of the One who wants to be called "our Father." In this way our relationships with our neighbors are recognized as personal in character. The neighbor is not a "unit" in the human collective; he is "someone" who by his known origins deserves particular attention and respect.


[b]The duties of citizens[/b]


[b]2238 [/b]
Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts:43 "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God."44 Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.


[b]2239 [/b]
It is the duty of citizens to contribute along with the civil authorities to the good of society in a spirit of truth, justice, solidarity, and freedom. [u]The love and service of one's country follow from the duty of gratitude and belong to the order of charity.[/u] Submission to legitimate authorities and service of the common good require citizens to fulfill their roles in the life of the political community.


[b]2240 [/b]
Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one's country:


Pay to all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due.45

[Christians] reside in their own nations, but as resident aliens. They participate in all things as citizens and endure all things as foreigners. . . . They obey the established laws and their way of life surpasses the laws. . . . So noble is the position to which God has assigned them that they are not allowed to desert it.46

The Apostle exhorts us to offer prayers and thanksgiving for kings and all who exercise authority, "that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way."47


[b]2241 [/b]
The more prosperous nations are obliged, to the extent they are able, to welcome the foreigner in search of the security and the means of livelihood which he cannot find in his country of origin. Public authorities should see to it that the natural right is respected that places a guest under the protection of those who receive him.

Political authorities, for the sake of the common good for which they are responsible, may make the exercise of the right to immigrate subject to various juridical conditions, especially with regard to the immigrants' duties toward their country of adoption. Immigrants are obliged to respect with gratitude the material and spiritual heritage of the country that receives them, to obey its laws and to assist in carrying civic burdens.


[b]2242 [/b]
The citizen is obliged in conscience not to follow the directives of civil authorities when they are contrary to the demands of the moral order, to the fundamental rights of persons or the teachings of the Gospel. Refusing obedience to civil authorities, when their demands are contrary to those of an upright conscience, finds its justification in the distinction between serving God and serving the political community. "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."48 "We must obey God rather than men":49


When citizens are under the oppression of a public authority which oversteps its competence, they should still not refuse to give or to do what is objectively demanded of them by the common good; but it is legitimate for them to defend their own rights and those of their fellow citizens against the abuse of this authority within the limits of the natural law and the Law of the Gospel.50

[b]2243 [/b]
Armed resistance to oppression by political authority is not legitimate, unless all the following conditions are met: 1) there is certain, grave, and prolonged violation of fundamental rights; 2) all other means of redress have been exhausted; 3) such resistance will not provoke worse disorders; 4) there is well-founded hope of success; and 5) it is impossible reasonably to foresee any better solution.




God Bless,
ironmonk

[KizlarAgha]

My problem is that patriotism also implies loving one country more than another. This is actually a very modernist viewpoint I'm taking but I see myself more as a citizen of the world than as a citizen of the US.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:23 PM'] My problem is that patriotism also implies loving one country more than another. This is actually a very modernist viewpoint I'm taking but I see myself more as a citizen of the world than as a citizen of the US. [/quote]
Ask yourself what does the Church teach? And study what it teaches on country...

It's ok to love your home more than another home. Patriotism does not say hate other countries. Go to [url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url], click the "Go" button next to the search, click advanced, only check the Catechism, and set the search options for "must contain", and type "Country" in the search area.

The Church's teachings will not misguide us.... our feelings and desires will.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Socrates]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:23 PM'] My problem is that patriotism also implies loving one country more than another. This is actually a very modernist viewpoint I'm taking but I see myself more as a citizen of the world than as a citizen of the US. [/quote]
So do you think we should hand over national sovereignity to the U.N.?

Over my cold, dead body! :angry:

[KizlarAgha]

I did what you asked Ironmonk, and the first thing I came up with was the Bishops using the catechism to admonish the US to maintain policies responisble to the rest of the people of the world. Seems like they're advocating that citizen of the world thing...

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/update/mar96.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/update/mar96.htm[/url]

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Socrates' date='Jun 2 2005, 09:56 PM'] So do you think we should hand over national sovereignity to the U.N.?

Over my cold, dead body! :angry: [/quote]
For crying out loud, Socrates. I didn't say that. I don't particularly like the UN. I just feel like I care for random strangers in Mongolia as much as random strangers in the US. I didn't even mention the UN. That's really a knee-jerk republican response.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:58 PM'] I did what you asked Ironmonk, and the first thing I came up with was the Bishops using the catechism to admonish the US to maintain policies responisble to the rest of the people of the world. Seems like they're advocating that citizen of the world thing...

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/update/mar96.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/update/mar96.htm[/url] [/quote]
That does not negate what it has in the Catechism which I posted above.

Check out this search on: "[url="http://www.usccb.org:8765/query.html?col=catechis&op0=&fl0=&ty0=w&tx0=&op1=%2B&fl1=&ty1=w&tx1=country+society&op2=-&fl2=&ty2=w&tx2=&dt=an&inthe=604800&ady=27&amo=5&ayr=2005&bdy=3&bmo=6&byr=2005&nh=10&rf=0&lk=1&ht=0&qp=&qt=&qs=&qc=&pw=100%25&la=en&qm=0&st=1&rq=0&si=0&ql=a"]country society[/url]"

It's not "either/or" it's both.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:59 PM'] For crying out loud, Socrates. I didn't say that. I don't particularly like the UN. I just feel like I care for random strangers in Mongolia as much as random strangers in the US. I didn't even mention the UN. That's really a knee-jerk republican response. [/quote]
People are not country.... country is our land and government. Patriotism does not deal with people, deals with our country as our parent and our home.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Aloysius]

you do confuse patriotism and nationalism

patriotism does not mean hate other countries. you rail against modernism, and then pull that "citizen of the world" stuff? that's modernism at it's finest.

well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that phrase doesn't include the mdoern connotations surrounding it (UN, EU, globalism and world government)... if you'll give us the benefit of the doubt and understand that what we view as "patriotism" doesn't include those nationalistic connotations surrounding it.

we're talkign about supporting our country specifically... being willing to defend it et cetera. subsidarity and all that, well you should really support your local state.

anyway, little known fact-- JPII was against emmigration because he thought people should stay where they are and help their own country. the Church for a long time has opposed emmigration for this reason, it is the traditional understanding of the Church. that people ought to defend and help their local group because that's the best way for every one, every individual group, to be strongest.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 2 2005, 10:02 PM'] That does not negate what it has in the Catechism which I posted above.

Check out this search on: "[url="http://www.usccb.org:8765/query.html?col=catechis&op0=&fl0=&ty0=w&tx0=&op1=%2B&fl1=&ty1=w&tx1=country+society&op2=-&fl2=&ty2=w&tx2=&dt=an&inthe=604800&ady=27&amo=5&ayr=2005&bdy=3&bmo=6&byr=2005&nh=10&rf=0&lk=1&ht=0&qp=&qt=&qs=&qc=&pw=100%25&la=en&qm=0&st=1&rq=0&si=0&ql=a"]country society[/url]"

It's not "either/or" it's both.


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
I know, but my point is that because love for a fatherland is predicated on love of neighbors, shouldn't then love of the world as a fatherland be equally valid? I mean, thanks to mass media and the internet I can know more about what's going on in the far reaches of Russia than about my own country if I so choose. In fact, I can also use the internet to speak to people from other nations around the world. For me, being "patriotic" for a greater world community is better than being patriotic for America.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 2 2005, 10:04 PM'] you do confuse patriotism and nationalism

patriotism does not mean hate other countries. you rail against modernism, and then pull that "citizen of the world" stuff? that's modernism at it's finest.

well, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that phrase doesn't include the mdoern connotations surrounding it (UN, EU, globalism and world government)... if you'll give us the benefit of the doubt and understand that what we view as "patriotism" doesn't include those nationalistic connotations surrounding it. [/quote]
I said it was modernistic. Right there, clearly. I know it's modernistic.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='Jun 3 2005, 12:04 AM'] I know, but my point is that because love for a fatherland is predicated on love of neighbors, shouldn't then love of the world as a fatherland be equally valid? I mean, thanks to mass media and the internet I can know more about what's going on in the far reaches of Russia than about my own country if I so choose. In fact, I can also use the internet to speak to people from other nations around the world. For me, being "patriotic" for a greater world community is better than being patriotic for America. [/quote]
You can love both.

Your homeland should come first, then love for world.


Maybe this will help...
Your homeland (USA) is like your parents, the world is like our grandparent... other countries are like our cousins.... and we all have that really 'odd' cousin... lol


God Bless,
ironmonk

[Aloysius]

sorry Kiz. I really just missed that. anyway, the Church's ideal world system would include a certain subsidarity in which if we all as individual groups (it is natural to divide into groups) look out for our own group without unjustly damaging other groups, then every group everywhere would be much better off. that's why patriotism can be good.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 2 2005, 10:07 PM'] You can love both.

Your homeland should come first, then love for world.


Maybe this will help...
Your homeland (USA) is like your parents, the world is like our grandparent... other countries are like our cousins.... and we all have that really 'odd' cousin... lol


God Bless,
ironmonk [/quote]
I dunno. I'm still not overly fond of it. I understand the need for individual countries. Only smaller nations can support the interests of their own people in a fitting manner. In fact, the size of the US might be part of the reason I'm not sold on patriotism to it. When 9/11 happened I just kind of shrugged my shoulders. It was sad, but I didn't feel like my home was under attack. I lived 3000 miles away, I'd never been to NYC, and I didn't know anyone who lived there. On the other hand, California [b]IS[/b] the odd cousin. So I'm not sold on it either.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='Jun 2 2005, 10:09 PM'] sorry Kiz. I really just missed that. anyway, the Church's ideal world system would include a certain subsidarity in which if we all as individual groups (it is natural to divide into groups) look out for our own group without unjustly damaging other groups, then every group everywhere would be much better off. that's why patriotism can be good. [/quote]
Yeah I think that's what I just said...a few seconds late...