crazy protestant quotes

[Brother Adam]

Nor do those who have hopelessly conflicted consciences because of growing up being taught heresy in a Protestant Church and do not have the intellectual faculties of accepting the Catholic Church. They too can be saved

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:19 PM'] Nor do those who have hopelessly conflicted consciences because of growing up being taught heresy in a Protestant Church and do not have the intellectual faculties of accepting the Catholic Church. They too can be saved [/quote]
The same with Muslims and Jews and Buddhists I would imagine.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i still don't buy it...

im gonna side with St.Agustine who said
outside baptism in the church their is NO salvation.

[Paphnutius]

Cite that please...and baptism is what incorporates you into the Church. Remember we are bound by the sacraments, but God is not.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

i don't know ill find it eventually but i heard a priest talk about it.

[FiZzGiG]

Okay, so I suppose most everyone covered it, but we covered this in class a few weeks ago, so I'll just type out my notes for the heck of it:

Take care not to fall into the mistake of Father Leonard Feeney, who interpreted the dogma: "Outside the Catholic Church there is no salvation" to mean that all Protestants cannnot be saved.
He did not distinguish "outside the Church" and "non-membership of the Church."

One can not be a member of the Church, yet be inside the Church. Similarly, it is possible to be inside of a society, yet not be a citizen (or member) of the society (I could be within Britain and have its same ideals, yet not be a citizen of the country.)
It is a dogma that God desires the salvation of all people, so there must be a way in which non-members of the Church can still be saved if they are non-members due to invincible ignorance.
All God can expect from you is to follow His will as best you can, that is, you are responsible for only what is revealed to you. If you have no way of knowing God or it hasn't ever occured to you that the Catholic Church is true, then how can God expect you to be Catholic? God wants us to accept whatever goodness and truth is revealed to us (because He IS goodness and truth).

Somehow, Protestant must be able to be inside the Catholic Church without being members. Those who desire what is good and true (whatever their conscience [providing it is not one of convience and is well-developed] deems true) can be within the saving grace found in the Catholic Church.
That is, those who, in their conscience, pursue what is good and true to the best of their ability can still be saved (this truth, if followe through, must inevitably lead to Catholicism, since it is the truth).
A Protestant who finds what he truly believes is true (using a well-developed conscience) can be inside the Catholic Church (yet would not be a memeber, because he doesn't see Catholicism as the truth... yet).

The dogma (outside the Church no salvation) must only apply to people in which being inside or outside the Church is an option in life (they must see the possiblity that the Church is true).
But, it is also a matter of conscience, so there are several factors at hand. As said before: the ways of God cannot be put in a box.


Sorry, that was long. I guess I had to right it out to organize it in my head. Pax.

[Paphnutius]

Dominus Jesus...good read...

[FiZzGiG]

hmm.... *searches amazon.com*

[FiZzGiG]

OH jk... they have it online! SHWEET!

[Aloysius]

if you reject the Church you reject Christ, and rejecting Christ is a mortal sin.

and so we deal with it as we deal with any other mortal sin.

is the person culpable of rejecting the Church? (i.e. full knowledge that it iss wrong (doesn't have to be explicit intellectual knowledge); full consent of the will, and grave matter (the rejecting the Church part is grave))

if he is not culpable of rejecting the Church, he will not be damned for being outside of the Church. thus being outside of the Church does not send one to hell. this is established in the traditional teaching of the Catholic Church and only with this frame of the faith can one properly interpret extra ecclesium nulla sallus.

so we see that one outside of the Church will only go to hell for being outside of the Church if they are culpable for the sin of being outside of the Church.

will they go to heaven? not necessarily. it depends on what state their soul is in at the moment of death. and thus, if those who Pope Leo XIII called our separated brethren hold to certain parts of the faith held over and taken from our True Faith and follow them, they become connected by the common beleif and faith. so long as their error doesn't lead them into some other mortal sin, they are not damned.

God will judge them based on, as biblical language puts it, the law written on the hearts of all men. i.e. the natural law, following God's will through the dictates of that conscience which was given to them by God. where their fate is, we can not necessarily know.

I enjoyed Pope Benedict XVI's book "Truth and Tolerance: Christian Belief and World Religions". Though it doesn't deal directly so much with the salvation issue, it gives you a perspective into the nature of those other religions.

Personally, I see someone who is unbaptized but inculpable for not being baptized and inculpable for not being in the Catholic Church as limbo-bound. They have neither committed a sin for which they may be damned, nor have they participated in the life of the Church through which all salvitic grace flows.

someone who is baptized validly, and inculpable of not being in the Catholic Church, is judged based on that natural law. because that baptism is actually connected and validated through the Holy Catholic Church, they have a connection (though imperfect) to that Church and thus a channel is open for salvitic grace and thus salvation.

anyone who is culpable for being outside of the Catholic Church is hellbound because of mortal sin. anyone who is not connected in any way to the Catholic Church is thusly not committed to the only conduit of salvitic grace placed upon this earth by God.

But we know, as Pope Leo XIII and popes since him have called them "christians" and "separated brethren" and we have generally accepted their baptisms as valid (previously it was thought to be valid but not presumed and thus they were conditionally baptized if they converted, but now the Magisterium has more formally validated the baptisms of most major denominations, as long as they baptize in the Name of the Trinity) protestants do have a connection to the Church. it is not perfect, full, or explicit, but it exists. And by baptism the Trinity resides in their souls and being connected to the Trinity in any way is the same thing as being connected to the Church. They remain separated brethren, and being brethren they have a hook-up with our Church's treasury of grace.

[sweetpea316]

Oy vey...this thread is giving me a headache...

As a Lutheran, I feel rather bashed... (and I know, I know,...rightly so, because this is a Catholic board..) but I dunno...I feel like I'm being looked down on because of something I can't help. (my family being Lutheran and raising me in their faith)

As for the pope/anti-christ thing...its sad but true. We actually had a whole Bible study about it a few weeks ago because someone brought it up. It drove me insane. That was actually my first time to hear about it and I was appalled to hear that as a member of the church, I 'believed' it also. Blah.

Anyways, just wanted to give my two cents worth. Don't wanna sound whiny or rude or anything because I love yall lots, but just wanted to express that. God bless.

[kateri05]

yea, i realize this turned into a discussion on baptism but the beginning was not charitable in the least. we have lots of protestants on the board and while we can certainly discuss, argue and attempt to convert them to the fullness of the Truth, we shouldn't be outright bashing for the sake of being mean. its just not nice (and not a good witnessing method either!) -_-

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

is not Mean what Martin Luther Said about The Holy Father?

[Paphnutius]

A simple sorry would work Extra eeclesiam.

[Aloysius]

sweetpea, not being able to help it, i.e. getting it from your family, makes it very likely you are inculpably ignorant of the Truth of the Church and through your baptism you are imperfectly and implicitly united to the True Church which is the only conduit of salvatic grace (Christ established ONE CHURCH, prayed that they all might be one and that this would be the sign by which those who are truly His Church would be known).

however, out of love for you I would not want you to stay in inculpable ignorance. you haven't committed a mortal sin by not being in the Church (you could commit that sin, if you put the full force of your will behind the decision to remain outside of the Catholic Church) and thus the Most Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit, resides in your soul and you are welcome to use the Church's treasury of graces and indulgences by praying to Jesus Christ and increasing in faith and virtue and in cases when you need it praying the prescribed prayers with the intention of healing your soul of sin(indulgence). But ultimately I would implore you to completely join that one Church Christ established. study, consider, and allow Christ to convince you. Because only through that can we be sure you are on the path Christ set out for us.

anyway, you are welcome to participate thusly in the treasury of graces and the treasury of indulgences as you are a baptized Christian.