Paphnutius Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:06 PM'] well i know the intent before vatican II. [/quote] Are you implying that the intent of the Church changed at this council? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 06:06 PM'] well i know the intent before vatican II. [/quote] Yes of course, because the Gates of Hell have prevailed against the Church and the Holy Catholic Church now embraces heresy and the Second Vatican Council was the sound of the death of the Church. No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:06 PM'] well i know the intent before vatican II. [/quote] Pius IX and Pius XII, both of whom I cited, were before Vatican II. And they say the exact same thing the Church says today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 no i am implying that the council is bieng interperted incorrectly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote]The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God.[/quote] "it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member" That's Pius XII. Before Vatican II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 "Catholics worship statues" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 It seems like they stated it rather explicitly in the quotes listed...and int he current CCC 1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." 63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity. I dont think we are misinterpreting the intent here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Eremite' date='Jun 2 2005, 06:09 PM'] Pius IX and Pius XII, both of whom I cited, were before Vatican II. And they say the exact same thing the Church says today. [/quote] Pope Eugene IV does not take into account baptism by blood, being imperfectly united to the Church through baptism, or any such thing. What he says is correct, there is no salvation outside of the Church, but there is something to be said about the situations the other popes addressed, they cannot be ignored. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 desired baptism is more directed at the unborn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:15 PM'] desired baptism is more directed at the unborn. [/quote] The unborn cannot desire anything. They have no rational faculties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 is baptism of blood doctirne? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:15 PM'] desired baptism is more directed at the unborn. [/quote] Not really...there is a whole different section about that....This is in regards to cases like the thief on the cross and the like. Those that live in remote areas of the world that do not have the benefits of the Roman Church and the sacraments... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) nice talkin but i gotta go cya y'all Edited June 2, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Wow. We've filled up three pages in just over an hour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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