Brother Adam Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:47 PM'] well i take them as a literal defenition. what do they mean to all of y'all? [/quote] You are compartmentalizing Church teaching just as Protestants compartmentalize Scripture to make it say anything they want it to say. Protestants can very well be imperfectly connected to the Church through their baptism. By way of invincible ignorance it is possible for them to be saved, so to through the baptism of blood, and all those who do not know about God and His salvation, but follow the precepts of the natural law and who would be baptized and join the Church if only given the chance may have eternal life. God is not confined to the box Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 (edited) Indeed. Read Domine Jesus by the then Cardinal Ratzinger, he addresses this issue rather well. They are in imperfect union with the Catholic Church and share in that union so far as their doctrine and sacraments are in union with the Church. When they say the Catholic Church they are referring to the universal Church and not always the Roman Catholic Church... Edit: It is called Dominus Jesus...sorry about the misspelling. Here is a link...I would recommend reading it [url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFUNICI.HTM[/url] Edited June 2, 2005 by Paphnutius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 was Pope Eugene IV not the vicar of christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Yes, he was. As was Pius IX. As was Pius XII. As was Paul VI. It is for them to explain what the Church teaches, not you. [quote]Lutherans still believe that the Pope is the anti-christ. [/quote] [quote]We [Lutherans] wish that agreement between our churches was such that we could look to you as our chief Pastor even now. Owing to the impossibility of such an arrangement at this time, we pledge ourselves to pray all the more fervently that you will find the burdens of office to be the easy yoke of Christ, that you will be the supreme bridge-builder (Pontifex maximus) between Christians, and that you will be a gentle but strong Shepherd of that portion of Christ’s flock placed under your jurisdiction and, by your example, give encouragement to those of us who are separated brothers and sisters. I hereby also request the members of The Society of the Holy Trinity to offer such prayers at all retreats of the Society, in the congregations in which they serve, and in their personal prayers. Gott befohlen. Frank C. Senn, STS (Lutheran Pastor, in recent letter to the Pope)[/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 so you are saying the catholic church used to believe that No one except Catholics in a state of grace could go to heaven, but no we don't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 04:58 PM'] so you are saying the catholic church used to believe that No one except Catholics in a state of grace could go to heaven, but no we don't? [/quote] No, you're saying that. I'm saying the Catholic Church believed, and believes, what Pius XII said she does: [quote]The same in its own degree must be asserted of the Church, in as far as she is the general help to salvation. Therefore, that one may obtain eternal salvation, it is not always required that he be incorporated into the Church actually as a member, but it is necessary that at least he be united to her by desire and longing. However, this desire need not always be explicit, as it is in catechumens; but when a person is involved in invincible ignorance God accepts also an implicit desire, so called because it is included in that good disposition of soul whereby a person wishes his will to be conformed to the will of God. [/quote] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 well Pope Eugene IV dosen't say the oppisite of that but he says beside baptism in the church their is no salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 04:58 PM'] so you are saying the catholic church used to believe that No one except Catholics in a state of grace could go to heaven, but no we don't? [/quote] No. We are saying that no one that is not incorporated into the universal (Catholic) Church, the Body of Christ that is in a state of grace cannot recieve eternal reward. That seems to be what has been said all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 so your telling me someone who is not catholic can be part of the body of christ and be in a state of grace? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 As Ermite said it is your interpretation of the clause, not the Churches intent. This is like saying that Romans 10:9 proves beyond doubt that we are saved by faith alone. The Bible and the Churches teachings must be understood with the intent of the author. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 well i know the intent before vatican II. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 Did you read Eremite's post about baptism by desire? Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience. Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel. She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 06:03 PM'] so your telling me someone who is not catholic can be part of the body of christ and be in a state of grace? [/quote] Someone who does not belong to the visible Roman Catholic Church as an active member in full communion of the Church can be imperfectly united to the body of Christ and in a state of grace, yes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extra ecclesiam nulla salus Posted June 2, 2005 Author Share Posted June 2, 2005 you are pushing me off the traditionalist cliff hear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted June 2, 2005 Share Posted June 2, 2005 [quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='Jun 2 2005, 05:03 PM'] so your telling me someone who is not catholic can be part of the body of christ and be in a state of grace? [/quote] Yes, that's what I'm telling you. Baptism effects an ontological change. Valid baptisms, even those performed outside of the visible boundaries of the Church, regenerate a soul and graft him into the Body of Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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