How would you like your Bible served Mam?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='Jun 4 2005, 11:03 AM']
How would I feel if one of them had a car accident today and died?  Horrible, I would pray for their souls.
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[/quote]

I think that you don't understand the main the problem and that is if they died in mortal sin all the prayer in the world will not help them if they go to hell. Our judgement will come like a thief in the night, we must always be ready. Out of a respect for truth when someone asks, we must answer if we know the truth.


[quote]Just as if a close friend gave birth out of wedlock, I would choose my first time meeting the child to be a celebration of that child's existence. I would not see it as an opportunity for admonishing the sinful actions that brought the child into the world.[/quote]

If she asked "Why is this wrong"... then it would be time to let her know or at least refer her to a priest because she asked, and out of respect for truth it would be the proper opportunity. If she didn't ask, then it would not be the right time to say anything. Ignorance of something being a mortal sin can make the sin venial, so if they were really ignorant, then their souls might not be in grave danger.

Saying something could be easily done with charity... "The children are beautiful, but since you asked the reason why it was wrong is because God said so. What is right and wrong is not up our job to decide on, that's God's job." or maybe even posing it as a question so that they come up with the reason such as "Why do you think the Church teaches it is wrong" then go from there.... of course just refer to a priest: "(Don't you think) A priest would be best to answer that question".


We are our brothers keeper, especially if they ask for a reason.

[b]Please, if you think I'm wrong, show me Scripture and/or Catechism to correct me.[/b]


[b]2464 [/b]
The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others. This moral prescription flows from the vocation of the holy people to bear witness to their God who is the truth and wills the truth. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenant.

[b]IV. Respect for the Truth[/b]


[b]2488 [/b]
The [i]right to the communication [/i]of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.


[b]2489 [/b]
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to [i]every request for information or communication[/i]. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet LANGUAGE. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283


[b]2490 [/b]
The secret of the sacrament of reconciliation is sacred, and cannot be violated under any pretext. "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore, it is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason."284


[b]2491 [/b]
Professional secrets—for example, those of political office holders, soldiers, physicians, and lawyers—or confidential information given under the seal of secrecy must be kept, save in exceptional cases where keeping the secret is bound to cause very grave harm to the one who confided it, to the one who received it or to a third party, and where the very grave harm can be avoided only by divulging the truth. Even if not confided under the seal of secrecy, private information prejudicial to another is not to be divulged without a grave and proportionate reason.


[b]2492 [/b]
Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons' private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights. Interference by the media in the private lives of persons engaged in political or public activity is to be condemned to the extent that it infringes upon their privacy and freedom.

Edited June 8, 2005 by ironmonk

[Cam42]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Jun 8 2005, 01:40 PM']I think that you don't understand the main the problem and that is if they died in mortal sin all the prayer in the world will not help them if they go to hell. Our judgement will come like a thief in the night, we must always be ready. Out of a respect for truth when someone asks, we must answer if we know the truth.
If she asked "Why is this wrong"... then it would be time to let her know or at least refer her to a priest because she asked, and out of respect for truth it would be the proper opportunity. If she didn't ask, then it would not be the right time to say anything. Ignorance of something being a mortal sin can make the sin venial, so if they were really ignorant, then their souls might not be in grave danger.

Saying something could be easily done with charity... "The children are beautiful, but since you asked the reason why it was wrong is because God said so. What is right and wrong is not up our job to decide on, that's God's job."  or maybe even posing it as a question so that they come up with the reason such as "Why do you think the Church teaches it is wrong" then go from there.... of course just refer to a priest: "(Don't you think) A priest would be best to answer that question".
We are our brothers keeper, especially if they ask for a reason.

[b]Please, if you think I'm wrong, show me Scripture and/or Catechism to correct me.[/b]
[b]2464 [/b]
The eighth commandment forbids misrepresenting the truth in our relations with others. This moral prescription flows from the vocation of the holy people to bear witness to their God who is the truth and wills the truth. Offenses against the truth express by word or deed a refusal to commit oneself to moral uprightness: they are fundamental infidelities to God and, in this sense, they undermine the foundations of the covenant.

[b]IV. Respect for the Truth[/b]
[b]2488 [/b]
The [i]right to the communication [/i]of the truth is not unconditional. Everyone must conform his life to the Gospel precept of fraternal love. This requires us in concrete situations to judge whether or not it is appropriate to reveal the truth to someone who asks for it.
[b]2489 [/b]
Charity and respect for the truth should dictate the response to [i]every request for information or communication[/i]. The good and safety of others, respect for privacy, and the common good are sufficient reasons for being silent about what ought not be known or for making use of a discreet LANGUAGE. The duty to avoid scandal often commands strict discretion. No one is bound to reveal the truth to someone who does not have the right to know it.283
[b]2490 [/b]
The secret of the sacrament of reconciliation is sacred, and cannot be violated under any pretext. "The sacramental seal is inviolable; therefore, it is a crime for a confessor in any way to betray a penitent by word or in any other manner or for any reason."284
[b]2491 [/b]
Professional secrets—for example, those of political office holders, soldiers, physicians, and lawyers—or confidential information given under the seal of secrecy must be kept, save in exceptional cases where keeping the secret is bound to cause very grave harm to the one who confided it, to the one who received it or to a third party, and where the very grave harm can be avoided only by divulging the truth. Even if not confided under the seal of secrecy, private information prejudicial to another is not to be divulged without a grave and proportionate reason.
[b]2492 [/b]
Everyone should observe an appropriate reserve concerning persons' private lives. Those in charge of communications should maintain a fair balance between the requirements of the common good and respect for individual rights. Interference by the media in the private lives of persons engaged in political or public activity is to be condemned to the extent that it infringes upon their privacy and freedom.
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[/quote]

It is all hypothetical.....they didn't die in a state of mortal sin.

And there you go judging again.....how do you know, for certain, that they would go to hell? Do you know that they failed to make a perfect Act of Contrition? Do you know the state of their soul at the moment of death? No, you don't.

I believe that hot stuff said on Jun 3 2005, 07:26 AM:
[quote]My suggestion at that point? "Why don't you go to confession?" Both took my advice and I consider the issue closed with both of them.[/quote]

So, where exactly is the disconnect with all of this? Isn't that exactly what you propose above?
[quote]then it would be time to let her know or at least refer her to a priest because she asked, and out of respect for truth it would be the proper opportunity.[/quote]

It seems Ironmonk, that you are being difficult, simply to be difficult. You have come around to hot stuff's position. Wouldn't it have been much easier to just agree with him in the beginning as opposed to all this banter and rhetoric?

Sheesh.......

Cam

[thessalonian]

hot stuff,

I see nothing wrong with your response. Praise God. I will say one thing. There was a time where I drifted away and was not right with the Church. Before that time I was very very Catholic as well. I'll not give details as it is not something I look back on fondly. I knew Church teaching. Yet, I allowed my mind to undermine it. Praise God for the solid rebuke I got from a couple of my sisters who had the guts to stand for what the Church taught. At first this offended my wife but later it became an important part of her conversion. So offense isn't always a bad thing.

Blessings

Edited June 9, 2005 by thessalonian

[Jaime]

Thess

I do not disagree that there are times when being direct are called for. I have found occassions to do so as well. But I am firmly against being direct all the time. One must work, learn from scriptures, and pray for the wisdom to discern what is the best method of persuasion.

In that light, Ironmonk, I don't disagree that we are our brother's keeper. Yes we are called to admonish the sinner. However there is nothing that states that direct and immediate confrontation is what is called for in every situation. Sometimes conversion can take years. Christ converted more through his actions and his love than he did through his words.

If immediate and direct confrontation was always the best course of action, why did Christ teach so often in parables? Why didn't he just confront the sinners and be done with it? Why did he go through all the hassle of story telling?

[scardella]

[quote name='Cam42' date='Jun 3 2005, 04:54 PM']Incidentally Scardella, if it is the truth, it cannot be a fallacy...The truth is not an ad hominem.
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[/quote]

Here are 2 quotes from the discussion before:
[quote] Obviously you don't know what charity is [/quote]
[quote] You are being stupid [/quote]

etc.

That is attacking the person and doesn't add to the discussion. That is the definition of [i]ad hominem[/i]. All it does is create animosity. Now, I do admit that it is mixed in with valid discussion points, but it undermines the fact that it is a discussion and detracts from anyone's desire to accept your points. Admittedly, the tone has cooled off since I posted, thankfully.

[thessalonian]

hot stuff,

Yes prudence in all things but....


Christ treated those who did not know differently from those who should know (i.e. the pharasees). We see that in Paul's writings as well where he says that the man living with his Father's wife should have been dealt with severely (1 Cor 5). You said these people were very, very Catholic. They need to be held to a higher standard than the woman caught in adultery. Not saying in their face but a higher standard.

Blessings