toledo_jesus Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='CatholicCid' date='May 31 2005, 06:26 PM'] How would destroying those who are pagans, those who spread heresy bring any good? Is not the Christian Message that Christ brings salvation for all? Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ. If you destroy them, is not the message your showing All Against Us Must Die. How will this compel those to truly try and find Christ? If we rid the world of Heresy by eliminating those who speak it... It's gonna be a pretty lonely place. But if we preach to rid the Heresy by showing the Truth to the heretics... We can reach the same end without a drop of blood. What you are preaching, to spread Christianity, is the same thing you say you hate, the spread of Islam through domination. [/quote] well, nobody's gonna kill any muslims. They'll come to Christianity on their own or they'll go to Hell. Maybe not even that if they are ignorant. here's a nice tangent, is anyone else tired of never hearing about Hell and how a lot of folks go there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='crusader1234' date='May 31 2005, 04:13 PM'] My thoughts exactly. JPII was not perfect. Nobody was. I pray to God that after my death millions of people are not dissecting the minutiae of my millions of sins. [/quote] Ditto my post to Apotheoun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lil bull 04 Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='May 31 2005, 07:17 AM'] Pope John Paul The Great did more to win muslims to Christ than anyone in the history of the world. By kissing the Quran, PJPTG showed respect to Muslims... and they listened to him about the Gospel of Christ. God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] i agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 03:11 PM'] How judgemental and non-scriptural. I have to reprimand you for saying this. It is arrogant in my view. Those who are weak in their faith have no faith? [. . .] [/quote] No action of any man, including the Pope, could make me question the gift of faith I have received from God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q the Ninja Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 The question should be more like, "Should a Pope kiss the Koran." It's the action we should be curious about, not the person. I'm curious, it may come up one day where I'll have to kiss the Koran. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 08:07 PM'] No action of any man, including the Pope, could make me question the gift of faith I have received from God. [/quote] So the second you came to know Christ you had the faith? You believe in OSAS such that it is not possible for you to loose your faith due to trial? Presumptoin? Do not judge other's faith based on your own is my point. Do not judge other's stuggles based on your own. Edited June 1, 2005 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 06:31 PM'] So the second you came to know Christ you had the faith? You believe in OSAS such that it is not possible for you to loose your faith due to trial? Presumptoin? Do not judge other's faith based on your own is my point. Do not judge other's stuggles based on your own. [/quote] My point is simply this: I will not allow the actions of any other man, whether it is a Pope who kisses the Qu'ran, or a priest who molests a child, to separate me from God. It is not the sin of presumption to point out that faith and doubt cannot simultaneously subsist in a man; instead, it is simply an act of assent to a dogma of the Church, for as Venerable John Cardinal Newman said, "It is, then, perfectly true, that the Church does not allow her children to entertain any doubt about her teaching; and that, first of all, simply for this reason, because they are Catholics only while they have faith, and faith is incompatible with doubt. No one can be a Catholic without a simple faith, that what the Church declares in God's name, is God's Word, and therefore true. A man must simply believe that the Church is the oracle of God; he must be as certain of her mission, as he is of the mission of the Apostles. Now would any one ever call him certain that the Apostles came from God, if, after professing his certainty, he added, that, perhaps he might have reason to doubt one day about their mission? Such an anticipation would be a real, though latent, doubt, betraying that he was not certain of it at present. A person who says, [i]'I believe just at this moment, but perhaps I am excited without knowing it, and I cannot answer for myself, that I shall believe tomorrow[/i],' does not believe now." [Venerable John Cardinal Newman, [u]Discourses Addressed to Mixed Congregations[/u], page 215] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='ironmonk' date='May 31 2005, 04:06 PM'] Here is a great book online that can help.... [url="http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents"]http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents[/url] God Bless, ironmonk [/quote] I agree....anything by the Founder is a good thing. Try The Furrow and the Forge as well..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 31 2005, 05:07 PM'] Many men died rather than kiss the Koran. Many martyrs have been made by men who would not pay homage to the religious works and idols of false religions. ACTS 25 8 As for the Gentiles who have come to believe, we sent them our decision that they [color=red]abstain from meat sacrificed to idols, [/color]from blood, from the meat of strangled animals, and from unlawful marriage." How much more that we are not to pay homage to the "holy" works of false religions. To Kiss the Koran was to spit on the Martyrs who died at the hands of the Muslims, who could have baoughttheir lives if the would have only kissed that acursed book, It insulted the martyrs who died on Crusade fighting that accursed religion, it insulted the Hospliters who fought for 400 yeaars to keep Christiandom safe, I would remind you that he was the Grand Master of that esteemed order. It was an inslt to those men and women who died converting North Africa in the time of the Romans who saw their Holy Work undone by the sword of Islamic invaders, it was an insult to the men and wemon who died by that very sword, it was an insult to the Coptics who still live under Islamic opression in Egypt and the Armenians who have suffered from Islam since its inception; it was an insult to every man or women who has ever tried to bring other men and women out of Darkness and into the light of the Catholic Faith. And finally if was an insult to Christ for whom all of thes Holy men and women suffered and continue to suffer; for whom all of those mentioned lived and died as that vile and accursed book teaches that He was but a man, and that He did not die for our sins. If that is not sacralige please tell me what then is. [/quote] Don nobody was threatening to martyr the pope, he did it as a sign of respect. Not everybody adheres to middle class America's cultural standards. Ocassionally it would profit us to set outside our little boxes and pay sttention to the rest of the world. The Holy Father did that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 (edited) Apotheon, No, your point is to judge other's faith and struggles. To look down upon those who are not at the same point as you. To smugly say that this thread is pointless because it causes you no difficulty. This rather than to help others with their difficulties and build them up. I've given scripture to support that there are levels of faith and levels of struggles. I am done. You may have the last word. Edited June 1, 2005 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philothea Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 31 2005, 08:10 PM'] The question should be more like, "Should a Pope kiss the Koran." It's the action we should be curious about, not the person. I'm curious, it may come up one day where I'll have to kiss the Koran. [/quote] It's good to know that some of us are ambitious! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 07:58 PM'] Apotheon, No, your point is to judge other's faith and struggles. To look down upon those who are not at the same point as you. To smugly say that this thread is pointless because it causes you no difficulty. This rather than to help others with their difficulties and build them up. I've given scripture to support that there are levels of faith and levels of struggles. I am done. You may have the last word. [/quote] I don't know when God made you privy to the secret intentions of my heart, but I bow before your infallible insight. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 10:05 PM'] I don't know when God made you privy to the secret intentions of my heart, but I bow before your infallible insight. God bless, Todd [/quote] "That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place." Sigh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 31 2005, 09:30 PM']Not everybody adheres to middle class America's cultural standards. [/quote] Wow. Don John has never ever been accused of adhereing to middle class American anything. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted June 1, 2005 Share Posted June 1, 2005 [quote name='CatholicCid' date='May 31 2005, 05:26 PM'] How would destroying those who are pagans, those who spread heresy bring any good? Is not the Christian Message that Christ brings salvation for all? Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ. If you destroy them, is not the message your showing All Against Us Must Die. How will this compel those to truly try and find Christ? If we rid the world of Heresy by eliminating those who speak it... It's gonna be a pretty lonely place. But if we preach to rid the Heresy by showing the Truth to the heretics... We can reach the same end without a drop of blood. What you are preaching, to spread Christianity, is the same thing you say you hate, the spread of Islam through domination. [/quote] I said the mission of Christianity was to destroy all other religins, I didn't say it necessarly be through the anniallation of all of those people. Conversion is of course always the best option. [quote]Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ.[/quote] Certianly no one talked about murder killing in Battle is not murder, not if done with right intention. I have quoted the Parable of the King who because of the mistreatment of his servants sends out his troops to destroy the cities and slay the people who have mistreated the servants, while the King is God, it has also been interpreted since the early Fathers to also be the Church. Of aourse all agianst Christ will die, they will die for all eternity, yet we letthem spread and massacre Christians, and enslave them, and make Christian boys Eunachs and make Christian girls sex slaves, and we allow them to take the baptised infants and raise them to deny Christ, and I do not speak of 400 years ago but today in Africa. I will leave you a quote by Saint Benard of Clairvaux. "[color=blue]BUT THE KNIGHTS OF CHRIST may safely fight the battles of their Lord, fearing neither sin if they smite the enemy, nor danger at their own death; since to inflict death or to die for Christ is no sin, but rather, an abundant claim to glory. In the first case one gains for Christ, and in the second one gains Christ himself. The Lord freely accepts the death of the foe who has offended him, and yet more freely gives himself for the consolation of his fallen knight. Neither does he bear the sword in vain, for he is God's minister, for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of the good. If he kills an evildoer, he is not a mankiller, but, if I may so put it, a killer of evil. He is evidently the avenger of Christ towards evildoers and he is rightly considered a defender of Christians. Should he be killed himself, we know that he has not perished, but has come safely into port. When he inflicts death it is to Christ's profit, and when he suffers death, it is for his own gain. The Christian glories in the death of the pagan, because Christ is glorified; while the death of the Christian gives occasion for the King to show his liberality in the rewarding of his knight. In the one case the just shall rejoice when he sees justice done, and in the other man shall say, truly there is a reward for the just; truly it is God who judges the earth. I do not mean to say that the pagans are to be slaughtered when there is any other way to prevent them from harassing and persecuting the faithful, but only that it now seems better to destroy them than that the rod of sinners be lifted over the lot of the just, and the righteous perhaps put forth their hands unto iniquity."[/color] Amazingly he is a saint and none of his writings have ever been condemned somthing to think about? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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