Tony Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 I actually believe that picture was photoshopped just for the sake of causing controversy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted May 31, 2005 Author Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='May 31 2005, 03:16 PM']I'm sure that was not the Holy Father's intention. What is the point of this thread anyway? Let Pope John Paul II rest in peace! (And may God bless his soul!)[/quote] Sorry Socrates, that's my doing. How can you say let he be dead he who now lives with God? (purgatory aside) I was a little taken aback when I found out about this a few days ago, and just wanted to discuss it a little. More for my own benefit than anyone elses... ya, I'm kinda self-centered in that kinda of way. You know, if someone posts about JPII, you don't have to read it. And you don't have to post on EVERY thread either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 That's ok. The whole "Koran-kissing" thing is the standard charge brought up by extreme Traditionalists and schismatics when they want to prove Pope JPII evil, illegitimate, or heretical. Most of the people who constantly harp on this are the ones who seem looking for a reason to hate or dismiss the Pope to begin with. I myself think it quite possible the photo was faked. Anyway, I think it best that we let God, rather than ourselves, judge JPII. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 This is a pointless thread. The most that can be said about this is that it was an imprudent act, but our Lord never promised that the successor of St. Peter would be prudent in all his actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 03:56 PM'] This is a pointless thread. The most that can be said about this is that it was an imprudent act, but our Lord never promised that the successor of St. Peter would be prudent in all his actions. [/quote] I disagree. This topic has shaken the faith of many. It must be properly understood in order to assist those whom it has scandalized. Discussion helps us to explain it to those who are not as knowledgable and are weak in their faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='return2truth' date='May 31 2005, 10:34 AM'] Thank you so much for revealing this quote to me. I have been strugling with trying to figure out how I can best live a devout life while still remaning an active part of a world so full of sinful happenings. [/quote] Here is a great book online that can help.... [url="http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents"]http://www.escrivaworks.org/book/the_way/contents[/url] God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='thessalonian' date='May 31 2005, 02:01 PM'] I disagree. This topic has shaken the faith of many. It must be properly understood in order to assist those whom it has scandalized. Discussion helps us to explain it to those who are not as knowledgable and are weak in their faith. [/quote] That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusader1234 Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 04:09 PM'] That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place. [/quote] My thoughts exactly. JPII was not perfect. Nobody was. I pray to God that after my death millions of people are not dissecting the minutiae of my millions of sins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote]I also believe another Pope (His name slips me right now, he was russian I think) was said to have left the Vatican shortly after he was named Pope. While wondering in simple clothes, he went into the appartment of a dying man to give Last Rites, but ended up giving a Jewish Blessing to the man as he was Jewish. Would this be disrepectful? Or would it be a sign of respect for other Religions? [/quote] I dont know if this story is true (I doubt it since I dont know how the Pope would know the prayers of the synagogue) but one thing is for certain. No Pontiff has ever been Russian, John Paul the Great was the first Slav to sit in Peter's See. For the past 400 years the Popes have been Italian and prior to that the majority were and if not they hailed almost without fail from the Romance countries and Germany. Only one was English, a certain Adrian. Going back before the ascendance of the Holy Roman Empire and its parent the Frankish Kingdom, again most Popes were Italian or citizens of the Roman Empire. Normally they hailed from the Western Patriarchate but they could be Oriental Romans too. Russian though? Thats unheard of. It'd be cool though, I wonder how he'd deal with the Orthodox...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
curtins Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 he was showing respect as others said- not worshiping it or venerating it and again theres the cross culture thing- kiss means differnent stuff etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 those who were forced to kiss the Qu'ran in the past did so with the express intention of rejecting their faith to save their life. that wasn't JPII's intent...so whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='May 31 2005, 03:16 PM'] I'm sure that was not the Holy Father's intention. What is the point of this thread anyway? Let Pope John Paul II rest in peace! (And may God bless his soul!) [/quote] You are probably right and I do not claim that it was< I firmly belive that JPII was trying to do his best always and that he constantlly strived to be Good and Holy. I am sure that all in all he was far Holier than I. I only responded here because it seems there is a movement here to simply dismiss this as trivial and it is not and was not Trivial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 31 2005, 04:09 PM'] That someone's faith could be shaken by something like this, makes me wonder whether they have the supernatural gift of faith in the first place. [/quote] How judgemental and non-scriptural. I have to reprimand you for saying this. It is arrogant in my view. Those who are weak in their faith have no faith? A little scripture for you. 1Cor.3 [2] I fed you with milk, not solid food; for you were not ready for it; and even yet you are not ready, Heb.5 [12] For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need some one to teach you again the first principles of God's word. You need milk, not solid food; [13] for every one who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a child. Paul does not say they have no faith. But their faith is still in it's infancy and needs to grow. What did Jesus say when the Apostles could not cast out a demon. You have no faith? No, but he did point to how weak their faith was. Matt.17 [20] He said to them, "Because of your little faith. For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, `Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you." 1Thes.5 [14] And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the idlers, encourage the fainthearted, HELP THE WEAK, BE PATIENT WITH THEM ALL. Faith is not an on or off switch. It is not something that we should pridefully look down upon those who are not at the level of faith we are at but we need to help build them up. I truly hope I have misunderstood your post. If I have I apologize for mine. If not I am saddened by your attitude toward those who need building up. Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='May 31 2005, 03:25 PM'] Don John of Austria, You have a very pationate post. But have you considered that JPII's actions was to try and end centuries of war and hatred that he did as he did? To follow your post, all christians should take up arms right this hour and wage battles to the death against all muslims. I cannot believe such actions would be pleasing to Jesus. If Jesus was alive today, would he command an army to fight all muslims to extinction? While he was living amongst us, how many asked him to lead the Jews against the Romans? What did He reply? [/quote] Jesus is among us today, and he is constantly insulted by Muslims. Christ came as the Prince of Peace but not Mans Peace, Christ Peace. Mans Peace is the Evil Peace, John Paul the Second was a man horrified by war, and he tried to stop it wherever he could but that doesn't mean that was always right. I believe firmly that Islam is Evil, we should not tolerate evil, we should destroy it. We are counciled not to try and over come Evil with Evil and I do not deny it, but a virtuous war is not Evil but Meritorious. It is not virtuous to end a war when it is not finished. [quote]If Jesus was alive today, would he command an army to fight all muslims to extinction? [/quote] You do not seem to understand Christianity at all, the Christian mission is to do just that, to render all the world Christian, to destroy, paganism and heresy everywhere to bring the Good news to everyone everywhere. However Islam also has a misssin to spread the domination of that vile Faith everwhere to all people. The Jews and the Romans are a completly dissimular case, the Jews where being given the final revelation and the Lamb had to be slaughtered for the atonment of our sins, further Christ had use for the Roman Empire, as it was to be the instrument of the conversion of the West, Islam is not a secular state, it is a religion founded by the Devil to confuse and decieve people. No the Cases are not analgous at all. If you want to have an analogy between Roman and Islam lets put it like this The Pope kissing the Koran was the Equivelent of The Pope Worshiping a Statue of Caligula, that would be analgous, and you know what if the Early Christians had been willing to do that they wouldn't have been fed to lions and tortured to death in the arena. And to answer your statement I think a Crusade, write now would be a very good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCid Posted May 31, 2005 Share Posted May 31, 2005 (edited) [quote]You do not seem to understand Christianity at all, the Christian mission is to do just that, to render all the world Christian, to destroy, paganism and heresy everywhere to bring the Good news to everyone everywhere.[/quote] How would destroying those who are pagans, those who spread heresy bring any good? Is not the Christian Message that Christ brings salvation for all? Murdering those who do not believe in this denies them any chance to be converted or to find Christ. If you destroy them, is not the message your showing All Against Us Must Die. How will this compel those to truly try and find Christ? If we rid the world of Heresy by eliminating those who speak it... It's gonna be a pretty lonely place. But if we preach to rid the Heresy by showing the Truth to the heretics... We can reach the same end without a drop of blood. What you are preaching, to spread Christianity, is the same thing you say you hate, the spread of Islam through domination. Edited May 31, 2005 by CatholicCid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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