Nathan Nelson just surprised me

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 27 2005, 12:02 PM'] If a woman could receive one grade of the Sacrament of Orders, she could receive them all, because the Sacrament of Orders is one sacrament, not three. [/quote]
Bingo!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 27 2005, 08:30 AM'] As usual, the folks at Phatmass ignore any argument that conflicts with their agenda and try to apply the Church's authority to their own subjective views.  I don't know why I'm surprised, and I don't know why I ever bother coming back here. [/quote]
I could make the same argument. Why would anyone read your blog, when it is filled with assertions that are contrary to the definitive teaching of the Church? But should I expect anything other than dissent from you on socalled "liberal" issues? I think not, because it is clear from your own writings that you are more interested in a political agenda, than in doing theology.

The blessings of the feast of the Holy Hieromartyr Alladius be with you.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 27 2005, 12:30 PM'] The quotation from the First Council of Nicea very clearly refers to the deaconesses from the heretical Paulianist sect. It says that they are to be numbered among the laity because they received no imposition of hands; meanwhile, deaconesses ordained within the Church [i]did[/i] receive the imposition of hands in their ordination rites.

[quote name='Apotheoun']The practice of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of not ordaining women is a diachronic expression of a definitive teaching. The sacrament of Orders is one sacrament with three grades or degrees, not three sacraments, and so to receive one degree within the one Sacrament of Orders implies the ability to receive the other degrees as well. As a consequence, women cannot receive any one of the grades of Sacred Orders, and this teaching of the Magisterium is based upon the Church's canonical tradition and her catechetical tradition (see CIC canon 1024; CCEO canon 754; and CCC no. 1577).[/quote]
The problem with this is that [b]the Church does not teach this[/b], which is why you're all having such a hard time citing a document that means anything. You'd really [i]like[/i] for the Church to teach this, and your personal magisteriums certainly teach it, but in actuality you can find no instance of the Church actually teaching what you're saying.

As usual, the folks at Phatmass ignore any argument that conflicts with their agenda and try to apply the Church's authority to their own subjective views. I don't know why I'm surprised, and I don't know why I ever bother coming back here. [/quote]
I think the Church knows more about it's teachings than you do nate.

You are wrong, but you could be right if you wanted.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Socrates]

Deaconesses were forerunners to today's consecrated female religious (sisters). Women already have a role in the Church. What would be the point of having ordained deaconesses?

This a seems politicized agenda, rather than a genuine need in the Church. Most of the people for whom having ordained deaconesses is such a pressing issue, would not want to stop there, but demand women priests also.

[ironmonk]

One would have thought you would actually look at the Catechism BEFORE trying to argue, I assumed you did, so obviously you didn't....

Women cannot receive Holy Orders. Nuns are numbered with the laity. If you cannot understand this from the below pieces of the Catechism, you have no business arguing, but you should be spending time trying to understand.

[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm"]http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm[/url]

[b]ARTICLE 6
THE SACRAMENT OF HOLY ORDERS[/b]

III. The Three Degrees of the Sacrament of Holy Orders


III. The Three Degrees of the Sacrament of Holy Orders


[b]1554 [/b]
"The divinely instituted ecclesiastical ministry is exercised in different degrees by those who even from ancient times have been called bishops, priests, and deacons."32 Catholic doctrine, expressed in the liturgy, the Magisterium, and the constant practice of the Church, recognizes that there are two degrees of ministerial participation in the priesthood of Christ: the episcopacy and the presbyterate. The diaconate is intended to help and serve them. For this reason the term sacerdos in current usage denotes bishops and priests but not deacons. Yet Catholic doctrine teaches that the degrees of priestly participation (episcopate and presbyterate) and the degree of service (diaconate) are all three conferred by a sacramental act called "ordination," that is, by the sacrament of Holy Orders:


Let everyone revere the deacons as Jesus Christ, the bishop as the image of the Father, and the presbyters as the senate of God and the assembly of the apostles. For without them one cannot speak of the Church.33


VI. Who Can Receive This Sacrament?

[b]1577
"Only a baptized man (vir) validly receives sacred ordination."[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm#66"]66[/url]The Lord Jesus chose men (ver) to form the college of the twelve apostles, and the apostles did the same when they chose collaborators to succeed them in their ministry.[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm#67"]67[/url]The college of bishops, with whom the priests are united in the priesthood, makes the college of the twelve an ever-present and ever-active reality until Christ's return. The Church recognizes herself to be bound by this choice made by the Lord himself. For this reason the ordination of women is not possible.[url="http://www.usccb.org/catechism/text/pt2sect2chpt3.htm#68"]68[/url][/b]


[b]1578 [/b]
No one has a right to receive the sacrament of Holy Orders. Indeed no one claims this office for himself; he is called to it by God.69 Anyone who thinks he recognizes the signs of God's call to the ordained ministry must humbly submit his desire to the authority of the Church, who has the responsibility and right to call someone to receive orders. Like every grace this sacrament can be received only as an unmerited gift.

[b]1579 [/b]
All the ordained ministers of the Latin Church, with the exception of permanent deacons, are normally chosen from among men of faith who live a celibate life and who intend to remain celibate "for the sake of the kingdom of heaven."70 Called to consecrate themselves with undivided heart to the Lord and to "the affairs of the Lord,"71 they give themselves entirely to God and to men. Celibacy is a sign of this new life to the service of which the Church's minister is consecrated; accepted with a joyous heart celibacy radiantly proclaims the Reign of God.72


[b]1580[/b]
In the Eastern Churches a different discipline has been in force for many centuries: while bishops are chosen solely from among celibates, married men can be ordained as deacons and priests. This practice has long been considered legitimate; these priests exercise a fruitful ministry within their communities.73 Moreover, priestly celibacy is held in great honor in the Eastern Churches and many priests have freely chosen it for the sake of the Kingdom of God. In the East as in the West a man who has already received the sacrament of Holy Orders can no longer marry.




God Bless,
ironmonk

[Guest JeffCR07]

This subject I am sure has been beaten to death already, but if I might add my two cents to the conversation:

It is my understanding that the role and function of the female deacon was primarily one tied to the baptising of adult women in the Eastern and Western Church until approximately the middle ages. Because people were still baptised by submersion, it was common to do so naked, and, as such, it would be improper for a male priest/bishop to preside over the rite. Thus, women baptised adult women. The women whose function it was to do so are what are referred to as "female deacons" though there is nothing at all that would ever imply that they received Holy Orders.

Your Brother In Christ,

Jeff

[Aloysius]

well then, perhaps I was just expressing my desire for a reformation and renewell of most female religious orders. I'm not really sure. I think a good case has been presented here against actual sacramental ordination which is why I would return to what I suggested on GF's blog that it be a seperate type of diaconate.

Anyway, I think we should focus more on the Nicaea council quote. What evidence do you present, Nathan, that this refers solely to the heretical groups? It seems to me to be saying that those deaconesses from the Paulianists ought to be put in the same role as regular deaconesses in the Catholic Church, that both are numbered among the laity. What evidence do you present that there was ordination in the actual Catolic deaconesses? You made the claim " deaconesses ordained within the Church did receive the imposition of hands in their ordination rites." then said we're all ignoring your arguments, but didn't provide evidence that they did. Did they? I'm not sure, I've never seen proof that they did. Only reference to it seems to be this reference to the Paulianists that they are to have the "same form be observed".

I hope you didn't mind me posting this here... I felt like discussing it myself and didn't intend to draw you in if you didn't want to.

don't get mad at us... we're all just trying to understand here (though a lot of the people here have already done enough research to be confident that they know what they're talking about).

I would like to see your evidence that they received actual sacramental orders. You seem confident of that but on what basis?

-pax-

[Good Friday]

Okay, here's the deal:

1. You people don't know anything about me.

2. I wanted to discuss this civilly, but of course the Phatmass barbarians (they know who they are) who patrol the phorum and insist upon creating constant incivility have made that impossible.

3. Therefore, if this can't be discussed civilly, I'm not going to discuss it at all.

4. I accept the Church's teaching, all of it, but I don't believe the reservation of the deaconate to be a magisterial teaching, then-Cardinal Ratzinger himself said that the matter was "under study" some years ago, and none of you have at all demonstrated that this is a magisterial teaching.

5. The International Theological Commission, over which then-Cardinal Ratzinger presided, declared this an open question that still had to be resolved by the magisterium. The magisterium has not since resolved it.

6. I believe you are motivated by an understandable fear that the ordination of women to the deaconate will be used as a stepping stone to women's ordination to the priesthood, and while I see your concern, that is not a valid reason to oppose female ordination to the deaconate -- steps can be taken to ensure that it is not a cause for scandal.

7. I was gone for a very long time because I was tired of being insulted here; I thought perhaps that I could come back without being insulted, but of course the moment that I post anything that varies even slightly from the majority opinion (not the teaching of the Church) I am openly insulted. As a result, I may not come back.

8. For a so-called Church Scholar, Apotheoun doesn't know squat.

9. I couldn't be more annoyed right now.

10. Have a nice day.

Edited May 27, 2005 by Good Friday

[Noel's angel]

i actually found your comments quite interesting

[Good Friday]

[quote name='JeffCR07']The women whose function it was to do so are what are referred to as "female deacons" though there is nothing at all that would ever imply that they received Holy Orders.[/quote]
Except of course for their ordination rites, which were virtually identical to those used for the ordination of deacons. But of course there's [i]nothing at all[/i] that would imply they received holy orders, because reality isn't reality, reality is whatever you guys define it to be.

[Good Friday]

[quote name='Apotheoun']I could make the same argument. Why would anyone read your blog, when it is filled with assertions that are contrary to the definitive teaching of the Church? But should I expect anything other than dissent from you on socalled "liberal" issues? I think not, because it is clear from your own writings that you are more interested in a political agenda, than in doing theology.[/quote]
Yes, let's discuss my liberal political agenda, O devout reader of my blog...

Perhaps part of this agenda was [url="http://exiledcatholic.blogspot.com/2005/05/quo-vadis.html"]fully accepting the teaching of the Church and repudiating all past words and actions in which I dissented from that teaching[/url];

Or maybe you're referring to my [url="http://exiledcatholic.blogspot.com/2005/05/ordaining-female-priests.html"]defense of the magisterium's teaching on the reservation of priestly ordination to men alone, against a friend of mine no less[/url];

Or perhaps you're referring to my [url="http://exiledcatholic.blogspot.com/2005/05/abortions-rising.html"]admission that abortion rates continued to decline during the Bush administration, and my apology and retraction for citing an earlier article which said those abortion rates were increasing[/url];

Or you could be referring to my [url="http://exiledcatholic.blogspot.com/2005/05/agreeing-to-disagree.html"]entry on agreeing to disagree with neo-conservative Catholics on matters of prudential judgment, in which I once again reiterated that Catholics must give full assent to divinely revealed or definitively proposed truth, and religious submission of will and intellect to teachings of ordinary papal magisterium[/url];

Or maybe you're even referring to my [url="http://exiledcatholic.blogspot.com/2005/05/red-russia.html"]condemnation of Russia's clandestine, deceptive neo-communism[/url];

Or, last but not least, you could be referring to my [url="http://socialconcern.blogspot.com/2005/05/slippery-slope.html"]thoroughly Catholic argument against the utilitarianism involved in embryonic stem cell research[/url].

Yes, I am just [i]so darn liberal[/i] -- I shall burn in hell.

[kateri05]

GooD Friday, I'm not sure why you're getting so upset noone has done or said anything rude or cruel or uncharitable EXCEPT to disagree with you, which isn't uncharitable, its simply discussing the issue that aloysius (sp?) presented. people like Todd, jeff, Micah and many others have a whole wealth of knowledge and experience on this issue as well as the appropriate charitable presenation to make a discussion both polite and civil. so i guess i'm not sure whats getting you so upset

[Guest JeffCR07]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 27 2005, 05:00 PM'] [quote name='JeffCR07']The women whose function it was to do so are what are referred to as "female deacons" though there is nothing at all that would ever imply that they received Holy Orders.[/quote]
Except of course for their ordination rites, which were virtually identical to those used for the ordination of deacons. But of course there's [i]nothing at all[/i] that would imply they received holy orders, because reality isn't reality, reality is whatever you guys define it to be. [/quote]
Good Friday, God Bless, and the Peace of Christ be upon you,

Do you have a link or some source for me to look at the rite used to initiate a female deacon? I would be very interested in reading such a thing, and comparing it myself to the rite of ordination of a male deacon both today and centuries ago.

[journeyman]

general article on the topic
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT[/url]


Regardless of the later actions of other councils, there appears to be historical evidence that women were ordained as deaconess.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia (which states there may be some exaggeration in the older documents): [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm[/url]

Further it is certain that a ritual was in use for the ordination of deaconesses by the laying on of hands which was closely modeled on the ritual for the ordination of a deacon. For example, the Apostolic Constitutions say:

Concerning a deaconess, I, Bartholomew enjoin O Bishop, thou shalt lay thy hands upon her with all the Presbytery and the Deacons and the Deaconesses and thou shalt say: Eternal God, the Father of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of man and woman, that didst fill with the Spirit Mary and Deborah, and Anna and Huldah, that didst not disdain that thine only begotten Son should be born of a woman; Thou that in the tabernacle of witness and in the temple didst appoint women guardians of thy holy gates: Do thou now look on this thy handmaid, who is appointed unto the office of a Deaconess and grant unto her the Holy Spirit, and cleanse her from all pollution of the flesh and of the spirit, that she may worthily accomplish the work committed unto her, to thy glory and the praise of thy Christ.

Comparing this form with that given in the same work with that for the ordination of deacons we may notice that the reference to the outpouring of Holy Ghost in the latter case is much more strongly worded: "fill him with the spirit and with power as thou didst fill Stephen the martyr and follower of the sufferings of thy Christ". Moreover, in the case of the deacon, prayer is made that he "may be counted worthy of a higher standing", a clause which not improbably has reference to the possibility of advance to a higher ecclesiastical dignity as priest or bishop, no such praise being used in the case of the deaconess.

The subject of the precise status of the deaconess is confessedly obscure and confused . . .

Presumptious abuse of power in the East was repressed. The West was reluctant to accept deaconesses as an institution. [url="http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd02589.htm"]http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/ncd02589.htm[/url]

Some historical references (hearsay - from a site not likely to be deemed impartial - but are specific enough that they could be checked by those with more knowledge of Greek, Latin, Italian and the Vatican libraries than I have)

Canon 15, Fourth Council of Chalcedon, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. XIV
Corpus Juris Canonici, Gratian's Decretum, Pars II., Causa XXVII, Quaest. I., Canon xxiij.

The Apostolic Constitutions, Book VIII Section III.-Ordination and Duties of the Clergy
Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. VII.

Manuscript Barberini gr. 336also known as the Nicolai Manuscript,
or as the Euchologion of St. Mark
Publication of the Greek text with an Italian translation by Stefano Parenti & Elena Velkovska, L’Eucologio Barberini Gr. 336, Bibliotheca «Ephemerides Liturgicae Subsidia» no 80, Edizioni Liturgiche, Roma 2000. pp. 170-174 & 336-339.
Published and translated into Latin by John Morinus, in Commentarius de Sacris Ecclesiae Ordinationibus, publ. Kalverstraat, Antwerp 1695

The Canons of the Council of Trullo #14, #48
also called the Quinisext Council, 692 AD
Attended by 211 Greek-speaking Bishops. Main purpose was to complete the Council of Constantinople by issuing "canons". The reigning Pope Sergius (687 - 701 AD) refused to sign the decrees, rejecting them as “lacking authority” and containing “novel errors”. But a century later Pope Hadrian I (772 - 795 AD) recognised the Trullan decrees.
Translation from the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. XIV

The Didascalia Apostolorum, Chapter 16
Collection of pseudo-apostolic church laws, North Syria; 3rd cent. AD
G. Homer, The Didascalia Apostolorum. The Syriac Version Translated, Oxford 1929.

Book III, Section. II.-On Deacons and Deaconesses, the Rest of the Clergy, and on Baptism.
The Apostolic Constitutions
Translation from the Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. VII

The Coislin gr. 213 Manuscript, also known as the Strategios Euchologion
The Ordination of Women Deacons in the Byzantine/Greek Tradition
This manuscript is found in the Coislin collection of the National Library in Paris. It dates from the 11th century. The rites contained in the text are very old, certainly not later than the 7th and 8th centuries AD.
An edition of the Greek text has been published by J. Duncan, PIO 1983

The Bessarion Manuscript, also known as Grotta Ferrata, gr. Gb1, the Patriarchal Euchologion or as the George Varus manuscript
The Ordination of Women Deacons in the Byzantine/Greek Tradition
found in the Greek monastery of Crypta Ferrata
Edition of the Greek text done by Miguel Arranz, L’Eucologio Constantinopolitano agli Inizi del Secolo XI, Editrice Pontifica Università Gregoriana, Rome 1996, pages 153-160.
Published and translated into Latin by John Morinus, in Commentarius de Sacris Ecclesiae Ordinationibus, publ. Kalverstraat, Antwerp 1695; pp. 63 - 65.

(Codex Syriacus Vaticanus, no 19)
Ritus Orientalium, ed. H.Denzinger, Würzburg 1864; deacon's ordination on pp. 229 - 233; deaconess's ordination on pp. 261 - 262.

Jacob Goar, Euchologion sive Rituale Graecorum, Paris 1647; pp. 262-264; with notes on pp. 264-267.

movement to abolish:
“Altogether no women deacons are to be ordained. If some already exist, let them bend their heads to the blessing given to the (lay) people.” Synod of Orange (441 AD), canon 26.
“We abrogate the consecration of widows whom they call ‘deaconesses’ completely from our region. If they wish to convert, no more than the blessing of penance should be imposed on them.” Synod of Epaon (517 AD), canon 21.

all material excerpted from Google search: deaconess ordination

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='journeyman' date='May 27 2005, 10:27 PM'] general article on the topic
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/LITURGY/AROSEBY.TXT[/url]

Regardless of the later actions of other councils, there appears to be historical evidence that women were ordained as deaconess.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia (which states there may be some exaggeration in the older documents): [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm"]http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04651a.htm[/url]

[. . .] [/quote]
These articles represent the views of their authors, just as the books by M. Hauke, A. G. Martimort, and others, represent an opposing viewpoint. The historical sources are open to interpretation, because a proper intention, which is required for a true sacrament, is not always easy to determine in a text, but what is not open to interpretation is the Magisterium's rejection of the ordination of women. Once again, if women can be ordained to the diaconate, it follows of necessity that they can be ordained to the presbyterate and the episcopate, because the Sacrament of Orders is one sacrament. The Church has definitively spoken on this matter, both through her liturgical law, and through her authoritative doctrinal pronouncements.