Charismatic priests

[Aloysius]

[quote name='BeenaBobba' date='May 23 2005, 09:49 PM'] Are you criticizing the Novus Ordo? The Mass is about much more than something as petty as language; it's about the Eucharist. I don't know how any Catholic could call a ceremony in which bread and wine turn into the Body and the Blood of Christ "skeletonized." The Eucharist is the heart and the soul of the Mass. [/quote]
there must be made a distinction between the source and summit of the Catholic Faith, the Most Blessed Sacrament which is clearly the source and summit of Catholic Life, and the Liturgical prayers that surround it.

so when I say the liturgy is skeletonized, I'm saying that the traditions and ritualism, the things that focus on it as more of an event than a service, the transcendent language, is all taken away. not all of this is the fault of novus ordo, a lot of it is priests rushing it and doing things for practicality and not beauty, a lot of it is the fail to heed the call of Vatican II to retain the Latin language in the liturgy. some of it is, i will not deny, the taking away of many parts of the mass that were beatiful and added to the visible representations of heaven on earth in the novus ordo missae.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

[quote] short summary? please and thank you.[/quote]

WOW i agree, lifes too short.

Mr. Brother Adam.

So if the church speaks all launguages what is the point of speaking in tounges pretty much usless right?

I never doubted their Faith in Catholicism, but it is defiently made up of protestant eliments.

this whole conversation is tempting me to run off to the SSPX.

I agree with Al. The Novus Ordo is bieng misinterperted and is in some ways allowing this protestanized Charasmaticism into the Mass were the Tridentine is so prescribed it would never happen.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 09:56 PM'] Brother Adam is putting words in my mouth.

I know the creed

with the Father and son he is worshiped and Glorified.

I also believe in Prophecy, healings and the like.

what i do not believe in is a bunch of this carp at adoration with the rock music the dancing the holding hands becase that is just garbage. and its protestant. the whole Idea of the practice of The Batpisism of the spirit comes directly from Pentocastal Christians. [/quote]
I'm not putting words in your mouth because you don't have half a clue of what you are talking about. Contemplating the Holy Spirit and putting yourself in His prescence is Protestant? Nope.

Yes there are abuses (just like in ultra-traditionalism), but if all you can see is abuses, you don't, and can't have any idea what is going on. I'm sure you would not appreciate it if I painted all Traditionalists with the disobedience of Archbishop Lefebrve. Now THERE is a Protestant idea if I ever did see one- disobey the Pope!

[Aloysius]

calm yourself EENS. this is why it's so sad... traditionalists and charismatics should recognize that they view a common problem and are both trying to solve it. it's the question of should there be a "renewall" or a "restoration" or PERHAPS something of both.

makes me sad how much at each other's throats these two groups are when they ultimately have the same spirit underlying their intentions.

Bro Adam, nope I haven't read it. relevant main points? srry, i'm reading tons of other books right now and have no money to buy new ones at this point... is it kind of along the lines of what I'm saying (how both chars and trads are recognizing the same problem)? or is it refuting that there is a problem?

-pax-

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

thee gifts of the Holy Ghost were intended to build up the Church not tear it down. We therefore cringe when we view on television thousands of Catholics, and the curious, holding votive candles and gazing in awe at a "vision" reflected in a pane of glass on the side of a building.For orthodox Catholics the novelties that are occurring in and outside the Church need not present any litmus test of religious faith. Catholics have the Mass and the Sacraments. They belong to a Church Divinely instituted and guarantee continued Divine guidance through the instrumentality of the Popes. These blessings, in conjunction with the sacramentals such as: novenas, rosaries, holy water and relics, provide Catholics a true guideline to heaven. What more is needed?


we do not need tounges because the church now speaks all launguages. Plus the Charasmcatic Catholic movement its not so much a launguage as just a bunch of spewed words, and sounds.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 10:47 PM'] lets see its a protestant interpertation and idea that has never been a part of Catholicism ever. Catholicism does not interpert speaking of tounges to be used nowadays. [/quote]
In all due respect, do you have any infallible statements to back that up?

[quote]and this whole "baptism in  the spirit"  thats just a protestant idea that says we need something besides the 7 sacremens to help us become saved, therefore it denies the 7 sacrements.[/quote]

No faithful charismatic Catholic would say that. In fact, I'm going to quote from [url="http://ccc.garg.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=FAQ&file=index&myfaq=yes&id_cat=1&categories=The+Charismatic+Prayer+Meeting&parent_id=0#19"]this[/url] site:

[b]Is the "Baptism in the Spirit" a New Sacrament?

No -- It is the RELEASE of the POWER of the Holy Spirit already within US that we received by faith at our Confirmation, and now in our experience, to enable us to live the Christian life we want to live but had only been partially successful in doing. We will begin to experience a new ability to appreciate Jesus, the Bible, our daily prayer life, and our faith through this living experience.[/b]

[quote] Again, Augustine writes:

" ...whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received, yet no one speaks in the tongues of all nations, because the Church herself already speaks the languages of all nations: since whoever is not in the Church receives not the Holy Ghost." (The Gospel of John, Tractate 32).[/quote]

Like I said, St. Augustine is not infallible.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 09:58 PM'] So if the church speaks all launguages what is the point of speaking in tounges pretty much usless right? [/quote]


No, This both ignores angelic tongues (yes it is in the Bible), and it ignores the fact that every member of the Church does not speak every language on earth. People can and do find themselves in situations in which they do not speak in the language of the people they are around and the Holy Spirit works his power through them.

[cmotherofpirl]

Charismatic Catholics are a legitimate part of the Church.
Trads on are on the outside looking in.

Brother Adam goes to a CATHOLIC college full of charismatic faithful catholics.
So I do think he knows something about this topic.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Its not about every member its about the community. Its not like its real launges its just a bunch of carp.

i know you've already seen this Brother Adam but the others may not have

a sister was talking about a bishop saying he was on fire with faith well he also seems to be a heretic protestant.

[quote]The conference liturgies were Novus Ordo concelebrations with Bishop Sam
Jacobs, a to-the-bone charismatic prelate, as main celebrant.  Here too, the
scale of spirituality tipped toward Protestantism.  What took place after the
Gospel smacked more of an Amway motivational seminar than a Catholic homily.
The "Sunday Sermon" featured Bishop Jacobs prancing up and down the stage in
revivalist style, spewing a generous mouthful of "Amens" and encouraging
audience participation.

During this address, taking his cue from Our Lord's "Who do you say that I
am?" to Simon Peter, Bishop Jacobs screamed at the audience:  "WHO DO YOU SAY
THAT I AM?"
  Screaming crowd "JESUS!"
  Bishop Jacobs:  "WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM?"
  Crowd:  "JESUS!"
  Bishop Jacobs:  "WHO DO YOU SAY THAT I AM?"
  Crowd:  "JESUS!"7

  The homily was often interrupted by loud, stamping applause... mind you,
this was in the middle of Sunday Mass!  Homilies on other days were of
similar stripe.  It was heartbreaking to endure a Roman Catholic bishop
carrying on like some cheap imitation of Oral Roberts.
For the most part, I find Charismatic leaders to be a cadre of very silly
men.  This impression was nowhere better confirmed than at this "ministry
session".  While Bleasdell was revving the crowd with cries of "Love and
dance before the Lord ... He longs to see it", priests and bishop(s) on a
crowded stage, including Father Scanlon, were having the time of their lives
and joined in the dancing.  7,500 Charismatics were treated to the spectacle
of Bishop Sam Jacobs joining arms with a woman (a plain-clothes nun, I think)
executing a rather clumsy series of moderate can-can kicks.  At one point,
Bleasdell was flanked by Bishop Jacobs on her right and what appeared to be
another bishop on her left engaging in full body dance, their pectoral
crosses bouncing to the rhythm, while smiling and waving at the audience.

The three of them together looked more like Diana Ross and the Supremes
than religious leaders.  It seems that the more our Church officials talk
of human dignity, the more they degrade ecclesiastical dignity.[/quote]

Edited May 24, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Aloysius]

neither is he [color=red][Augustine][/color] to be lightly discarded. the three main lessons we can learn from Augustine's statement that the gift of tongues is gone from this world

-from the beginning there have been people who babbeled nonsense thinking they were speaking tongues. St. Paul dealt with it telling them not to do it if there was no one to interpret it; St. Augustine dealt with it saying that the gift of tongues is gone from the earth

-the gift of tongues is an extraordinary tool God uses when the Church has need of it

-when the Church can transcend language, that is a good thing for the spiritual life of the Church. whether it is speaking all languages, speaking Latin, or speaking in tongues. worship ought to transcend everyday secular language

Edited May 24, 2005 by Aloysius

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 11:09 PM'] Its not about every member its about the community. Its not like its real launges its just a bunch of carp.

i know you've already seen this Brother Adam but the others may not have

a sister was talking about a bishop saying he was on fire with faith well he also seems to be a heretic protestant.

[/quote]
what trad site are you quoting from?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 23 2005, 10:09 PM'] Charismatic Catholics are a legitimate part of the Church.
Trads on are on the outside looking in.

Brother Adam goes to a CATHOLIC college full of charismatic faithful catholics.
So I do think he knows something about this topic. [/quote]
And I'm not even charasmatic. I can't sit and watch ignorance run amuk without keeping it in check. Though it seems EENS hasn't heard a thing any of us have said.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

don't get me wrong I belive in tounges when it is an ACUTAl launguage. Adam do you go to Stuebenville? its full of them according to the internet. But I also believe that MOST of these people are fakers and along with the fakers protestant ideas are bieng used like yelling, dancing, (during the mass, and at "worship services" which we never had before 1967, and Eucharistic adoration with music, rolling on the floor, etc)

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 23 2005, 10:12 PM'] what trad site are you quoting from? [/quote]
Kindof like looking to a Baptist website to get good information on Catholics right?

[cmotherofpirl]

Steubie is one of the best Catholic colleges in the country.
Slander of its students is not nice.