Charismatic priests

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 23 2005, 09:22 PM'] I don't know any charasmatics that abandon the doctrine of the Church. And I know a hell of a lot of charasmatics now. Maybe they are out there, but the charasmatic movement is not a new set of doctrines. It doesn't change anything about faith or morals. Ultra-Traditionalism is way more dangerous because it fosters (as we see all the time on this board) a rejection of the Pope and the ordinary magisterium of the Church. [/quote]
I do. See, personally I can sympathize with schismatic traditionalists (at least the hold most major dogmas et cetera and have all 7 sacraments) than those that gut the faith. Amyway, charismatics don't necessarily abandon anything but the spirit of the movement is to find a new solution rather than the traditional solution.

basically, both recognize the problem created by gutting the liturgy and destroying reverence... they have much more in common than they realize. so which solution ought we to go to? since personally I don't buy that tongues actually happens in these charismatic circles (it seems like mind tricks and little emotional highs to me) I think a return to Latin and traditional liturgical stuff is the correct path.

It's pretty sad that we split up so easily over all this when both sides are just trying to solve the same problem-- a skeletonized liturgy and lack of transcendence of earthly things like secular language et cetera.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 23 2005, 10:22 PM'] I don't know any charasmatics that abandon the doctrine of the Church. And I know a hell of a lot of charasmatics now. Maybe they are out there, but the charasmatic movement is not a new set of doctrines. It doesn't change anything about faith or morals. Ultra-Traditionalism is way more dangerous because it fosters (as we see all the time on this board) a rejection of the Pope and the ordinary magisterium of the Church. [/quote]
I agree, Adam. I know many charismatic Catholics, and almost all of them are faithful to the teachings of the Church. They're avidly pro-life; they're strongly devoted to the Holy Father; they've got a deep love for the Eucharist. How any Catholic could call charismatic Catholics loyal to the See of Peter Protestant is beyond me. How any Catholic could call charismatic Catholics with strong devotions to the Eucharist Protestant is beyond me.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I don't buy any of it either. Never was it a Catholic IDea, it comes directly from Protestantism, which is wrong. So either Protestanism is right or Charasmaticism is wrong. Im gonna go with CHarasmaticism is wrong.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 10:29 PM'] once agian,

it was given the early members of the church to help get the church started.
Saint Augustine clearly states, "... This happened to announce something, (that the Gospel was to be announced to the ends of the earth), then disappeared." (See St. Augustine Chap 9). [/quote]
Well, first of all, St. Augustine was not infallible. Second of all, who's to say that God wouldn't deem tongues useful nowadays?

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 10:41 PM'] I don't buy any of it either. Never was it a Catholic IDea, it comes directly from Protestantism, which is wrong. So either Protestanism is right or Charasmaticism is wrong. Im gonna go with CHarasmaticism is wrong. [/quote]
Actually, it's the other way around. Protestants got the idea from Acts. Of course, the Bible is Catholic. That said, charismatic Protestants got the idea from Catholic practices.

[cmotherofpirl]

Kindly remember St Augustine is not infallable.
does this name ring a bell....

Pentecostal Catholics--The Catholic Charismatic Renewal

by The Most Reverend William J. Levada, Archbishop of San Francisco

Modern Pentecostalism began in 1906 in a small black Protestant church on Azusa Street in Los Angeles. It has had an astonishing growth -- first among Protestants in the United States, and in the latter decades of this century, across all denominations in Latin America, Africa and indeed throughout the world. Father Kilian McDonnell, OSB, the Collegeville Benedictine who is both theologian and chronicler of the movement, has recently opined that by the year 2000 the number of Pentecostals of all denominations will far exceed the number of Protestants and Orthodox combined.

The first group of Pentecostal Catholics experienced the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the manner unique to Pentecostalism at Duquesne in Pittsburgh in 1967 and at Notre Dame in 1968. By 1972 Cardinal Suenens personally encountered the charismatic renewal, the preferred terminology for Catholics and mainline Protestants, for the first time during a visit to the United States. He was immediately taken by this encounter, appealing as it did to his keen desire to see the church flourish as in a new Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit. For him this amounted to a life-long goal.

In many ways Suenens was an unlikely person to carry the banner for the Catholic charismatic renewal. Personally reserved, even shy, at times almost overly intellectual, he was profoundly touched in his own personal experience and in assessing the fruits of the Holy Spirit in so many Catholics (and Protestants, too, I should add) whose spiritual journey had been deepened and advanced through the renewal. Cardinal Danneels captures it perfectly in his funeral homily:

"How could a cardinal with a face that did not show many emotions, with a straight and immobile stature, with a grave and steady voice, find himself at ease in the midst of a crowd that sang, danced, clapped hands and spoke in tongues? Was it a late life conversion to fantasy and imagination in a man who had been until then too rational and responsible? No. Rather, he perceived in this revival a return to the church of the Acts of the Apostles about which he had always dreamed -- with a taste for the Scriptures, spontaneous prayer, joy, a sense of community, the stirrings of the Spirit, the proliferation of charisms. The Archbishop Levada (Continued from Page 1.) renewal gave the legitimate role of the heart and the body back to the spiritual life of Christians."

Suenens dialogued with the Catholic leadership of the new movement -- Ralph Martin, Steve Clark, Kevin Ranaghan, Father Jim Ferry in the United States, and in Europe as well. He made a singular contribution by explaining the renewal to the pope and the Curia, and by alerting its leadership to what I would call their "amnesia" about the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the church: the Eucharist, The Blessed Virgin Mary, the pope as visible center of unity, the scope of Catholic teaching and practice.

From 1974 to 1986 Suenens composed a series of six "Malines Documents," which still serve as a guide to the renewal, with precious insight into its possibilities and its needs. Charismatic Renewal, with Kilian McDonnell as lead consultant, was followed by Ecumenism and Charismatic Renewal (1978). In 1979 Charismatic Renewal and Social Action was written in collaboration with his longtime friend, Dom Helder Camara of Brazil. In 1982 he wrote Renewal and the Powers of Darkness, with a Foreword by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. The final two "Malines Documents" treat two specific issues the renewal had to deal with: an over-reliance on introspection, in Le Culte du Moi et Foi Chretienne (1985); and the controversial phenomenon Resting in the Spirit (1986), sometimes also referred to as "slaying in the Spirit."

1975 marks the year of the renewal’s "coming of age" in the Catholic Church. Thanks to Veronica O’Brien’s urging of the cardinal and the cardinal’s convincing recommendation to Pope Paul, the renewal was invited to have its world congress at Rome on Pentecost during the Holy Year. As Father Walter Abbott notes, during the 1975 Holy Year "the charismatic renewal was decisively accepted into the Catholic Church when Pope Paul endorsed it in St. Peter’s Basilica on Pentecost Sunday." Peter Hebblethwaite, in his book, Paul VI--The First Modern Pope, concludes, "Suenens won another battle." It is also fair to say that Suenens was the man of the hour for the renewal. His patient, intelligent, ongoing dialogue showed many in the charismatic renewal how to integrate their new enthusiasm for religious experience blessed by the gifts of the Spirit into the faith and practice of the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Charisms for the Third Millennium

On July 14, 1979, less than a year into the pontificate of Pope John Paul II, Suenens submitted his resignation as archbishop of Malines-Brussels. It was a duty which he, above all, would not neglect or refuse, since he had been the first to publicly call for the retirement of bishops. While the council heard his plea without enthusiasm, Pope Paul VI introduced the rule, motu proprio.

On Jan. 4, 1980, he was succeeded as archbishop by Godfried Danneels, then bishop of Antwerp. His has been an active retirement, as his many books and lectures throughout this period will attest. His successor has publicly stated what Pope John Paul II said to him as he began his ministry, "Cardinal Suenens played a crucial role during Vatican II, and the universal church owes much to him."

At this symposium we look to the 21st century and the third millennium of Christianity. I was asked to speak to you about the charism of Cardinal Suenens. I have tried to be reasonably thorough, and I hope reasonably objective, in the time given to me. I know that he was genuinely looking forward to this very symposium on retrieving charisms for the 21st century to find the new insights and new directions of the Spirit, who blows where he wills.

By way of conclusion, I would recall again Suenens’ singular achievement in providing direction for the council in its earliest days, when he outlined a simple framework for its deliberation and the council decided to concentrate its work around the central theme of the church as such -- ad intra and ad extra.

It seems to me that he models a very significant charism to be retrieved for the new millennium: an ability to frame the question properly. Of course our society and its media already have a political framework for characterizing religious statements: They are usually cast on the grid from liberal to conservative. The frame of reference is most often the current political campaign, with comments as thoughtful as a sound byte. The Gospel message handed on in the living tradition of the church is either unknown or so far in the background that it is unrecognizable as a frame of reference.

In my view, even the church people tend to mimic the secular frame of reference, with its penchant for labels. I suggest a moratorium on labels in the church and a retrieval of the unified vision of the council, which did not issue a "conservative" Lumen Gentium and a "liberal" Gaudium et Spes.

To frame the question properly for these last days of our advent before the Jubilee of the Year 2000 and for the third millennium, we would be well served to focus more clearly, and with greater unity as Catholic Americans, about our task as sacramentum mundi -- the sacrament of Christ in the world.

In his apostolic letter Tertio Millennio Adveniente, on preparation for the Jubilee of the Year 2000, Pope John Paul calls the Second Vatican Council, in which he participated as auxiliary bishop of Krakow, "a providential event, whereby the church began (to prepare) for the jubilee of the second millennium." In commenting on the series of Synods of Bishops begun after the council, he says:

"The theme underlying them all is evangelization, or rather the new evangelization, the foundations of which were laid down in the apostolic exhortation Evangelii Nuntiandi of Pope Paul VI, issued in 1975 following the third general assembly of the Synod of Bishops. These synods themselves are part of the new evangelization: They were born of the Second Vatican Council’s vision of Archbishop Levada (Continued from Page 6.)

the church. They open up broad areas for the participation of the laity, whose specific responsibilities in the church they define. They are an expression of the strength which Christ has given to the entire people of God, making it a sharer in his own messianic mission as prophet, priest and king."

John Paul relates the themes of Catholic social doctrine to the new evangelization, continuing the vision of Evangelii Nuntiandi, which proposed "evangelization" precisely as a Gospel vision which embraces the church ad intra and ad extra. It thus transcends the categories of dialectical perspective of action and reaction which characterize so much of modern political thought and strategy, of liberal vs. conservative as a dominant framework.

To enable and to serve this new evangelization, the Second Vatican Council provided its providential clarification of the true nature of the church, so that knowing who she is, the church might be better able to be the sacramentum mundi. The pluralism of contemporary society challenges us more than ever today to know and say why we believe in Christ and who we are as church.

For this reason the question of Catholic identity is necessary and central both for the church as a whole and for each individual disciple within the community. In the face of the well-documented religious ignorance among Catholics in America, I think we must look more urgently at the task of how well we form ourselves as church for our mission in and to the world. What Cardinal Newman called for more than a century ago in England -- a well-formed, well-educated and convinced Catholic laity -- will be more than ever a necessity in an increasingly democratic and pluralistic world of the third millennium.

Father Benedict Ashley has suggested that we pay more attention to the "documents" of this Catholic identity: the teachings of the Second Vatican Council as developed through the Synods of Bishops and their resulting apostolic exhortations, and particularly as presented in an integrated manner, updated with the teachings of Vatican II, in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. In his 1994 McGinley lecture at Fordham, Father Avery Dulles, a symposium speaker, called the catechism "the boldest challenge yet offered to the cultural relativism that currently threatens to erode the contents of the Catholic faith."

Put another way, the broad task of the new evangelization, the church’s mission, requires the concomitant task of ongoing catechesis, I might even say a "new" catechesis, to provide the indispensable foundation for effective engagement in the church’s mission in the world, which is the baptismal vocation of the laity.

Framing the question for the next century and the new millennium in this way, as our readiness for the challenge of the new evangelization, will ideally bring us to an ongoing participation in the new Pentecost envisioned by Pope John XXIII and Cardinal Suenens for the Second Vatican Council.

In his final chapter of the Hidden Hand of God, Suenens gives us quite consciously his last testament: "As I look to the future, I cannot avoid stressing the role of the Holy Spirit in the church of tomorrow. He is always ‘the life-giving Spirit,’ in the fullest meaning of the words. This is the idea I would like to emphasize by way of farewell."

Cardinal Suenens, we thank you for the charism -- the gift -- your life has been for us as church. In our farewell to you, may we pay to you the tribute you so kindly gave to your friend John XXIII in your homily at Vatican II: "At his departure, he left us closer to God and the world a better place for us to live." Requiescat in Spiritu Sancto.

For the full text of Archbishop Levada’s keynote address of May 31, 1996, delivered at the Cleveland symposium from which the foregoing was condensed, see Origins, CNS Documentary Service, June 20, 1996, Vol.26:No.5, The Charism of Cardinal Suenens. This article appeared in the February 1998 Edition of the San Francisco Charismatics (ISSN 1098-4056), the monthly newsletter of the Archdiocese of San Francisco, Office of the Charismatic Renewal.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Because we are not starting a new church. and....

lets see its a protestant interpertation and idea that has never been a part of Catholicism ever. Catholicism does not interpert speaking of tounges to be used nowadays.

and this whole "baptism in the spirit" thats just a protestant idea that says we need something besides the 7 sacremens to help us become saved, therefore it denies the 7 sacrements.

Again, Augustine writes:

" ...whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received, yet no one speaks in the tongues of all nations, because the Church herself already speaks the languages of all nations: since whoever is not in the Church receives not the Holy Ghost." (The Gospel of John, Tractate 32).

its not real its just a bunch of hype stolen from Protestantism because its "exciting"

Edited May 24, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 09:41 PM'] I don't buy any of it either. Never was it a Catholic IDea, it comes directly from Protestantism, which is wrong. So either Protestanism is right or Charasmaticism is wrong. Im gonna go with CHarasmaticism is wrong. [/quote]
News Flash:

This just in: Praying to the Holy Spirit is wrong. It's Protestant folks. Abandon the 3rd person of the Trinity at once!


ah, heck EENS you don't even know what the Charasmatic movement is all about. That's the problem. You probably think Binny Hinn is the heartbeat of the Southern Baptists, and the suicide bomber speaks for all Muslims.

[cmotherofpirl]

Please read what I posted.

[Aloysius]

anyone notice how it appeared as Latin disappeared? coincidence?

be it from God or the natural inclination of Catholics to want something that transcends their everyday speech in worship... it does have a connection to the end of a Sacred Language.

it's clearly not here from God to convert the world though... we'd have people speaking to crowds composed of people who speak different languages and everyone understanding it. if God is doing it, He's doing it to supplement the faith of those few people involved in the charismatic movement. it seems to me that the gift of tongues is more of an extraordinary tool of God that wouldn't be used merely to supplement the faith of charistmatic Catholics. and thus I am inclined to think it is the natural inclination of Catholics seeking something that transcends everyday secular language.

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 23 2005, 10:36 PM'] It's pretty sad that we split up so easily over all this when both sides are just trying to solve the same problem-- a skeletonized liturgy and lack of transcendence of earthly things like secular language et cetera. [/quote]
Are you criticizing the Novus Ordo? The Mass is about much more than something as petty as language; it's about the Eucharist. I don't know how any Catholic could call a ceremony in which bread and wine turn into the Body and the Blood of Christ "skeletonized." The Eucharist is the heart and the soul of the Mass.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 23 2005, 09:48 PM'] Please read what I posted. [/quote]
short summary? please and thank you.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 23 2005, 10:49 PM'] short summary? please and thank you. [/quote]
lol
Its not THAT long!

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Brother Adam is putting words in my mouth.

I know the creed

with the Father and son he is worshiped and Glorified.

I also believe in Prophecy, healings and the like.

what i do not believe in is a bunch of this carp at adoration with the rock music the dancing the holding hands becase that is just garbage. and its protestant. the whole Idea of the practice of The Batpisism of the spirit comes directly from Pentocastal Christians.

[Brother Adam]

Al, have you read "The History and Future of the Roman Liturgy" by Crouan? It has a more 'traditional' slant than anything so I think you'd like it. Helps put everything into perspective.