Charismatic priests

[Gal. 5:22,23]

I sort of liked this article until I read towards the bottom of it that people were injured, even bloodied during this "worship" service. I have been to lots of charismatic services, but have NEVER seen anyone physically harmed.


Nigerians blend Catholicism, traditional beliefs
07:37 AM CDT on Monday, May 23, 2005

By JOSHUA BENTON / The Dallas Morning News

ENUGU, Nigeria – Ejike Mbaka is telling a story. The 20,000 Nigerians gathered around him in the red-dust lot have gone quiet.

"Last week, there was a man who was mad, insane," he begins, standing on a rickety stage. "For years, the doctors attempted to heal him. But the infirmity continued. He came to me for help.

"I gave him some healing water" – and here, some in the audience hold up the small plastic packages of water he sells, 45 cents each – "and told him to pour it in his ear on Sunday. Then pour it in his other ear on Monday.

"He did exactly that. And on Tuesday, a large frog crawled out of his ear. And he was cured."

Appreciative cheers from the audience. "Such are the things God can do," he says.

It's about 10 p.m. When the sun comes up in the morning, the crowd will still be here – except for those injured thrashing on the ground under the Holy Spirit's spell.

What's remarkable about the scene isn't what Ejike Mbaka says. It's who he is. He's not a witch doctor. He's not a Pentecostal preacher. He's an ordained Catholic priest.

After sunrise, he'll go back to his parish, Christ the King Catholic Church, and hear confessions. But for now, he's promising the crowd hundreds of miracles on this night. If they're lucky, he might even repeat a feat he says he's accomplished four times before: raising a man from the dead.

Scholars say Father Mbaka and his brand of Catholicism symbolize the impact that Christianity's rapid expansion in the Third World could have on the faith: pushing mainline religion toward the supernatural.

"That is what is defining the face of Christianity in Africa now," said Jacob Olupona, a native Nigerian and a religion scholar at the University of California at Davis. "The church is discovering how powerful a phenomenon it is, how popular it is with the people. And now they can't stop it. So they go along with it."

Some within the church worry about this nudging of conventional Christian doctrine toward the mystical. But others, including Father Mbaka, say it's a welcome return to the early days of Christianity, when earthly signs of God's power were a regular and acknowledged part of the faith. He quotes Psalm 97 to emphasize God's force: The mountains melt like wax before the Lord.

"I believe that, as a Catholic priest, I am a healing instrument of God to my generation," he says. "The whole environment is charged for a miracle."

Vatican approval

The teachings of Catholicism and faith healing are not diametrically opposed, even to the Vatican. Since the 1960s, the charismatic renewal movement within the church has advocated a more Pentecostal style of worship, including "charisms" such as speaking in tongues and healing. It has met, perhaps surprisingly, with general approval from church leaders.

In 1979, addressing the movement's leaders, Pope John Paul II said charisms are "all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action."

When Pope Benedict XVI was still Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he wrote the foreword to a book on the charismatic movement. Criticizing "a world imbued with a rationalistic skepticism," he wrote that charisms were "not just ancient history, over and done with." He cautioned, however, against charismatic Catholics' going too far and subverting the central role of the church's hierarchy.

Dr. Olupona said that 10 or 20 years ago, the Nigerian Catholic hierarchy might have asked Father Mbaka to keep quiet. "But they realize that it's a different story now," he said. "If they did that now, they would be courting their own demise. People believe in him."

Father Mbaka, a handsome 38-year-old, says he began his healing ministry in 1996 after discovering he had curative powers. "It is the work of the Holy Spirit," he explains. "I can't heal anyone as a human being. I am open to God as a channel. And the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk. Cancers disappear."

He says those who doubt him will face God's wrath. Three days earlier, a man in a neighboring state vehemently criticized his ministry. As punishment, Father Mbaka says, God struck the man blind. "If he repents, he will see again," he says.

Every Wednesday, Father Mbaka's all-night healing sessions draw thousands to the vacant lot he calls the Adoration Grounds, next to his Catholic parish. Around 10 p.m., after hours of preaching by his followers, he strolls in like a rock star.

The band at stage left blares – lots of drumming, blasts of trumpets, and occasional female vocalists. He holds a golden cross and wears the traditional finery of the Catholic Church; followers reach out to touch the hem of his gold and ivory robe.

A dozen priests and almost 30 nuns follow him. There will be a Communion service later, and Father Mbaka needs help distributing the Eucharist to the swelling crowd.

"In America, I would not see a crowd one-hundredth the size of this one," he tells the cheering crowd. "But the spirit of God is in Africa."

Father Mbaka rattles off passages in Scripture that support his healing ministry. Luke, Chapter 7: "But say the word, and my servant will be healed." Matthew, Chapter 19: "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." Jesus' own words, he says, are what will bring the miracles in a few short hours.

Father Mbaka's flock is very poor, and he says he needs money to serve them. He wants to buy land in the country and build housing for orphans and the elderly. To support his dream, he made a fundraising swing though America a few months ago, including a stop in Dallas.

"In America, they have the money but not the worshippers," he tells the crowd. "Here we have the worshippers but not the money."

To raise cash, he has started selling his own private-label "healing water," called Aquarapha. "God is using Aquarapha to heal a lot of diseases," his newsletter says, next to a customer testimonial claiming that the water healed his swollen eyelids.

Father Mbaka acknowledges that most American Catholics would be skeptical of his ministry. It doesn't bother him. "That's the problem with the American church," he says. "There is not enough faith. I believe the God of old is still the God of the present."

Pushing boundaries

African Christians have, in recent years, pushed at the boundary between traditional beliefs and the version of the faith they were taught by Western missionaries.

In 2000, a South African archbishop, Buti Tlhagale, advocated adding animal sacrifice to the Catholic Mass as a way of venerating ancestors. "Animal sacrifice has a special place in the scheme of things and is celebrated in almost all African families," he argued. "We have kept it out of the church of God for too long."

Africans began to experiment with their Christianity in the late 1960s, when nations were gaining political independence from European colonial powers. Some people wanted religious independence, too, and left the mainline faiths to form what became known as the African independent churches. These churches integrated traditional beliefs into a Christian framework, emphasizing spirits, exorcisms and connections to ancestors. Many included the word "apostolic" in their names as a way of connecting to the early days of Christianity, when miracles were not considered uncommon.

A second wave of experimentation came in the 1990s, following the rise of Pentecostal churches in Africa. They claimed to offer a more direct path to the Holy Spirit, through tools like speaking in tongues, snake handling and healing. Pentecostalism remains enormously popular; one evangelist, the German Reinhard Bonnke, draws close to 2 million people to crusades in Nigeria.

Traditional churches were forced to adapt, Dr. Olupona said. "Their members were leaving, and they had to do something to keep them." African cultural markers, like drumming and dancing, were introduced to previously staid ceremonies. So were elements of the supernatural.

As the Rev. Joseph Offor, a priest in Enugu, put it: "These other churches had something to offer people, and we needed to offer it too."

Through all the changes, faith healing has been an important component. In places like Nigeria, access to quality health care is reserved for those with money. Diseases like polio, long abolished in America, persist here. AIDS threatens to wipe out much of the continent. So people turn to faith.

"We're talking about churches that are responding to human suffering," Dr. Olupona said. "Human poverty in the midst of plenty. An unpredictable, at times very violent society."

"In the West, if you are sick, you go to a hospital," Father Offor said. "Here we can't. So we don't put limits on miracles here."

At one point in the evening, Father Mbaka says to the crowd: "Every person here is ready to die for this ministry!" The gathered thousands cheer wildly.

Some have already died. Father Mbaka has, on occasion, preached against the state government of Enugu. On March 7, 2002, 14 worshippers at one of his services were killed. A government inquiry said they died in a stampede, the result of the priest's over-incitement of too many people packed into too small a space. Father Mbaka says they were killed by government gunmen.

Healing time

About 3 a.m., after Communion, a breeze kicks up. It's been scorching hot all night, and people have been standing in place for up to 10 hours now. It's time for the healing to begin.

"You are not at all free to leave here with your sickness," Father Mbaka thunders to the crowd. "This is not a democracy. This is a theocracy. Under divine order, you are to be healed!"

The band gets louder. The breeze dies down. "I don't know what the devil has done to you to put you in eternal tears," Father Mbaka says. "But I am going to force it out of you. I am not here for jokes! This place is the new Calvary!"

He cites Mark, Chapter 16: "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."

Then he yells into the microphone: "Do you believe? Do you believe?"

A too-thin woman in a brown dress is the first to approach the stage. The crowd has created an open space, and she walks into it, eyes rolled back, speaking in tongues. She falls to the ground and begins flailing, arms extended and bent violently.

She has the floor to herself for a minute or so before others are similarly moved. One by one, they come out of the crowd, yelling or muttering, and begin convulsing like someone having a nightmare.

A man in dress slacks falls to his knees and shakes while looking up to heaven and screaming. Women fling off their sandals and headdresses and roll and kick and cry.

Father Mbaka comes off the stage to stand among them. He keeps up the chant: "Do you believe? Do you believe?" The number of people moved by the Holy Spirit climbs: 20, then 40, then 100. Women come out of the crowd to tie scarves around the legs of other women thrashing on the ground, lest their skirts lift, exposing their legs to the audience.

One woman starts eating dirt; another's jaws chatter as if she were freezing. A powerful man stands and spins angrily, eyes closed, until he has to be restrained by a group of men.

"The wounds are opening! You can't help yourself!" Father Mbaka shouts. "Receive it!"

Some of those convulsing are clearly injuring themselves – most with strains and sprains, but a few are bleeding. It's hard to tell who's crying in religious passion and who's crying in pain.

The dozen priests on the stage look down on the crowd silently.

Then, after 35 minutes, the music stops. Father Mbaka lowers his voice. His assistants, wearing orange T-shirts and black vests, pull the injured away to the Christ the King parish house, where they'll be tended to.

Rapid growth

African Christianity is growing at a cheetah's pace. In Nigeria alone, the number of Christians is projected to leap from 50 million in 2000 to 123 million in 2050. As their numbers grow, so will their influence over the global church.

Many wonder how "African" the faith will become.

"A lot of more mainstream Catholics in Africa are very nervous about that," said Philip Jenkins, a Penn State professor who studies African Christianity. "They don't mind having the drums in church. But they draw the line somewhere."

Some Enugu priests who refuse to condemn Father Mbaka nonetheless speak of him with a tone of confused acceptance. "Some people find that is the path they wish to follow, but it is not for me," said Terkure Igbe, a seminarian.

Just before the sun rises, after the injured have been carted away and the crowd calmed, Father Mbaka calls out, "If you have been cured of blindness through this ministry, come up to the stage."

About a dozen people come up and start dancing joyously. Joseph Osundu is one. Asked about his healing, he said he was never actually blind. "I am here to support my pastor," he said. "My sister had cancer, and she was cured. He is a good man."

'Very sad people'

A few hours earlier, during a lull in the services, Father Mbaka had taken a few of his assistants to an area behind the Adoration Grounds.

This is where the truly unfortunate come: the destitute, the homeless and the crippled. They sit on the ground between parked cars. Many haven't eaten for days. Father Mbaka walks among them, as he does every Wednesday. His assistants distribute bowls of rice.

Most of the men are missing at least one limb. One had the right side of his face melted off when his brother threw acid at him. Another has horrific burns over his entire back.

"These are very sad people," Father Mbaka says. "They are here every week. Good Christians."

Why, if Father Mbaka is such a powerful healer, are their ailments never cured? Why don't these men regrow limbs, or fresh, clean skin?

Father Mbaka pauses for a moment.

"God must have decided he does not want to heal these people yet," he says. "God is in charge."

E-mail jbenton@dallasnews.com
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Online at: [url="http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedc....d0.html"]http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedc....d0.html[/url]

[Lil Red]

umm, very freaky

...selling holy water?

this guy sounds a little fishy to me.

[master_alterserver]

This is all very interesting...but I know not what to think about it all. I am always very skeptical. I have never heard of it. Thank you for sharing!

[Mogmog]

Sounds like another person giving the Charismatic movement a bad name by getting carried away.

I personally believe that healings do happen to this day and aren't that uncommon. Too many people in my own life have been touched by such miracles.

On the other hand, the things they were describing people doing wreaks more of demonic spirits than the Spirit of God. And that is the danger if you focus on the gifts and not the Giver. If you seek a supernatural experience without caring about where it comes from it leaves the door wide open to the Enemy. The selling of the so-called healing water especially inclines me to distrust this priest. I guess I can't be 100% sure that I am right about this guy. The article is obviously framed against him. Who knows.

In any event, I think 1st John 1 is important here.
Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

And missionaries in Africa know better than anyone that they do indeed have to worry about traditional religious practices disguising themselves as Christianity. The main challenge is to provide adequate catechisis. I understand that one of the big challenges of the Church in Africa right now is to have enough qualified teachers to meet the needs of the people there.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

Why does Charasmaticism have to invade the church. THis speeking in tounges is a bad idea, it has NEVER been a part of our Tradition, and with the charasmatic movement it is protestantizing our Faith. We are a people of dignity, of solemnity, not this, not this.

[quote]Just before the sun rises, after the injured have been carted away and the crowd calmed, Father Mbaka calls out, "If you have been cured of blindness through this ministry, come up to the stage."[/quote]

WOW! sounds very fundementlaist evangelical i can't and will never accept Charasmaticism as Catholicism.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Brother Adam]

In everything, moderation. EENS, I have to ask you, do you consider the Apostles part of our Christian Tradition? If you do, then you must accept that gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of our Christian Tradition. Just as the Society of St. Pius X has given traditionalism a very bad name, so too have a few guys in the Charasmatic movement given it a bad name. Charisms are a very Catholic concept, being open to the Holy Spirit is a very Catholic concept. Just as we call on the Holy Spirit at mass every day, we too can call on him in group and personal prayer. Do things happen that are suspecious? Yes, but we are a very big family. I'm suspecious of ultra-traditionalists everytime they reject the Pope and the Second Vatican Council. It makes these folks even less "Catholic" than charasmatics who take it too far. I am not a charasmatic, but I really do think you need to take a more balanced approach. The CM has not changed doctrine, nor has it changed worship. Praising God and praying to the Holy Spirit, using charisms as they are given to us is all a deep part of our Catholic Tradition. The CM has put an emphasis on these values, that is often very uncomfortable for many Catholics, but it is naturally not required for anyone to pray for Charisms. I do wish more people would be more open to them though, even in a non-charasmatic community.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

According To St.Agustine the speeking in tounges was a gift of the Holy Spirit to help the new church out not for ages to come.

are you directing the ultra-traditionalism at me?

plus I can under stand were traditionalism comes from.

for 1500 years we have a mass and then it is changed and outlawed by the church, THOUSANDS of years of church teaching is changed. I sympthasise with them more then protestants converts dragging garbage into our Holy Mother Church, and People feeling like they need to compete with protestants to gain members. The Holy Spirit does not move people to roll on the floor and speak unintelligibile false tounges.

[quote] In everything, moderation. EENS, I have to ask you, do you consider the Apostles part of our Christian Tradition? If you do, then you must accept that gifts of the Holy Spirit are part of our Christian Tradition. Just as the Society of St. Pius X has given traditionalism a very bad name, so too have a few guys in the Charasmatic movement given it a bad name. Charisms are a very Catholic concept, being open to the Holy Spirit is a very Catholic concept. Just as we call on the Holy Spirit at mass every day, we too can call on him in group and personal prayer. Do things happen that are suspecious? Yes, but we are a very big family. I'm suspecious of ultra-traditionalists everytime they reject the Pope and the Second Vatican Council. It makes these folks even less "Catholic" than charasmatics who take it too far. I am not a charasmatic, but I really do think you need to take a more balanced approach. The CM has not changed doctrine, nor has it changed worship. Praising God and praying to the Holy Spirit, using charisms as they are given to us is all a deep part of our Catholic Tradition. The CM has put an emphasis on these values, that is often very uncomfortable for many Catholics, but it is naturally not required for anyone to pray for Charisms. I do wish more people would be more open to them though, even in a non-charasmatic community.[/quote]


Since when has speaking in tounges been part of church tradition?

Edited May 23, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

The entire idea of batism by the spirit is a protestant idea, so is all of the pentacostal/charasmatic movement.

[quote]It is a pan-denominational movement with a non-Catholic principle as its
unifying factor, in this case, "baptism in the spirit".[/quote]

[quote] It virtually ignores Catholic teaching on the discernment of spirits.

  Though this point has been covered already, it must be further noted that
Pentecostalism encourages extraordinary phenomena such as "prophesying" and
"talking in tongues."  Yet the great mystical writer and Doctor of the
Church, St. John of the Cross, warned that souls must flee from seeking any
such manifestations.  What this great Saint said of private revelations
equally applies to all such phenomena:  "Wherein the devil habitually meddles
so freely [in extraordinary phenomenon] that I believe it impossible for a
man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an
appearance of truth and security does the Devil give them.16[/quote]

it became popular with the rise of the Protestanized Novus Ordo mass.

it supports relegious indeffrence.

It ignores the Doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, drawing most of its services, and teachings from Shismatic protestantism.

Edited May 23, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[Mogmog]

For example

[quote]"we have heard of many of the brethren who have foreknowledge of the future, visions and prophetic utterances; others by laying-on of hands heal the sick and restore them to health." - Irenaeus
[/quote]

[quote]"many members of the Church who have prophetic gifts, and by the Spirit speak with all kinds of tongues, and bring men's secret thoughts to light for their own good and expound the mysteries of God." - Irenaeus [/quote]

St. Cyril, in preparing people for the sacraments of Christian Initiation says:

[quote]Let each one prepare oneself to receive the heavenly gift of prophecy"[/quote]

and

[quote]God grant that you may be worthy of the charism of prophecy[/quote]

and finally

[quote]my final words, beloved ones, in this instruction are words of exhortation, urging all of you to prepare your souls for the reception of the heavenly charisms[/quote]

Apparently one reason the fire died out relatively early on had to do with the heresy of Montanism. I don't know much about him but he represented widespread abuse of the charisms and religious experience in general which was reacted against. Both Cyril and Irenaeus where aware of this heresy but they took a more balanced approach.

There is a more than adequate defense of speaking in tongues linked in Phatmass's reading section, which is [url="http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ34.HTM"]here[/url].

Finally, outright rejection of the movement is in contrast to the strong acceptance of every Pope since the movement began (including B16).

To the a gathering of Charismatics John Paul the Great said:
[quote]Whenever the Spirit intervenes, He leaves people astonished. He brings about events of amazing newness; He radically changes persons and history. This was the unforgettable experience of the Second Vatican Ecumenical Council during which, under the guidance of the same Spirit, the Church rediscovered the charismatic dimension as one of her constitutive elements: "It is not only through the sacraments and the ministrations of the Church that the Holy Spirit makes holy the people, leads them and enriches them with His virtues. Allotting His gifts according as He wills (cf. 1 Cor 12:11), He also distributes special graces among the faithful of every rank...." (Lumen Gentium, #12) The institutional and charismatic aspects are co-essential, as it were, to the Church’s constitution.[/quote]

More than this though, it's hard to deny it when people you know speak languages they don't know, and find, when someone around speaks said language, they are praising God.

"Why are you praising God in German?"

"Oh, that's what that is."

True story.

You touch on something else as well, something has been referred to, I think aptly [i]a priori[/i] bias against religious experience which has been becoming more and more common with the onslaught of secular culture.

One more quote on that:

[quote]To exercise caution regarding religious experience is prudent.  All the spiritual writers of the Catholic mystical tradition warn against an excessive focus on religious experience and the need to apply solid discernment when we encounter spiritual phenomena.  They warn us that spiritual phenomena, even when authentic, can, if not handled properly, lead to a range of problems.  An imbalanced approach to religious experience can lead to excessive focus on oneself, rather than love of God and neighbor, which every authentic religious experience is properly ordered to.

Yet despite their consistent warning, the mystical writers understand that religous experience is a normal part of Christian life.  In fact, their warnings assume it.  Indeed, their own lives were replete with a wide range of religious experience and genuine encounter with the living God.  The focus of their writing was often that living encounter, which necessarily entails some dimension of religious experience, whether it be dreams, visions, experience of spiritual ecstasy, the spiritual marriage, prophecy, miracles, etc.  They not only provide principles to guide the spiritual journey, their works are often a record of the wide range of spiritual experience a disciple will likely encounter on the way.

To put it simply, the Catholic "experts" on spiritual experience, the mystical writers of the Church, do not see religious experience as a negative, as something to be avoided at all costs.  They don't reduce it all to mere emotion or superficiality or a distraction found primarily among the spiritually weak and immature."
- [i]When the Spirit Comes in Power[/i]
[/quote]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. This "current of grace" within the Church as JP the Great has called it may not be for everyone (though I like to think it is) but with all the support it receives from people you can hardly call liberal, please at least by charitable to those who do find nourishment there.

[url="http://web.archive.org/web/20030219224902/http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ284.HTM"]More statements of popes about the renewal[/url]

Yours in Christ,

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 06:43 PM'] According To St.Agustine the speeking in tounges was a gift of the Holy Spirit to help the new church out not for ages to come.

are you directing the ultra-traditionalism at me?

plus I can under stand were traditionalism comes from.

for 1500 years we have a mass and then it is changed and outlawed by the church, THOUSANDS of years of church teaching is changed. I sympthasise with them more then protestants converts dragging garbage into our Holy Mother Church, and People feeling like they need to compete with protestants to gain members. The Holy Spirit does not move people to roll on the floor and speak unintelligibile false tounges.




Since when has speaking in tounges been part of church tradition? [/quote]
Ah, yes. Those damned protestant converts. What were they thinking converting to Catholicism? Yes. Charasmatic Catholics can end up fostering people who babble non-sense. And those ultra-traditionalists can foster a rejection of the Catholic Church and help aid in damning souls to hell. Yes.

I can understand sensitivities over Tradition. It's good. There is a point when people take it too far. I don't doubt the sincerity you have over the great things of old. Charasmatics don't reject orthodox and traditional values. That is where you are missing the whole entire point. See, I also don't doubt that Padre Pio was given knowledge of peoples sins even before they confessed them. I don't doubt my friend was healed of a hip disease when a priest prayed over her at a charasmatic service. God uses our imperfect praises and prayers to do miracles.

An yes, the Bible speaks of angelic tongues, and speaking in tongues of men. They happen today at times I have no doubt of that much. But yes, perhaps things would have been better if the Second Vatican Council never happened. Maybe John Paul II was the anti-Pope. Maybe the Novus Ordo is invalid. Then again, maybe the gates of hell have prevailed against the Church. Me thinks not

[Aloysius]

traditionalists and charismatics have much more in common than they realize. the reason charismatics seek so much after a restoration of tongues (whether you think it really happens or not) is because they never experienced the prayerful transcendence of language (eh hem.. LATIN)

anyway, I take the TLM movement over the charismatic movement any day simply because there tend to be more dangers b which the taditional doctrine of the Church is abandoned for protestant innovation assosiated with the charismatics.

there is a legitimate debate to be had as to the merits of the charistmatic movement. many things are bad, many intentions are good, and I'm sure there are many good fruits. but really, both are a response to the problem created by gutting the traditions of the Church.. the Latin and the ritualism and the reverence.

[Brother Adam]

I don't know any charasmatics that abandon the doctrine of the Church. And I know a hell of a lot of charasmatics now. Maybe they are out there, but the charasmatic movement is not a new set of doctrines. It doesn't change anything about faith or morals. Ultra-Traditionalism is way more dangerous because it fosters (as we see all the time on this board) a rejection of the Pope and the ordinary magisterium of the Church.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

I have no problem with Protestant converts but.. don't convert if your just gonna come into our Church change it and lead the Traditional astra.

Brother Adam: You have not responded to me point about Charasmcaticism coming directly from a Protestant Relegion. Thats not how we Catholics operate. Im all for the Holy spirit but i don't think that the holy spirit makes people do the can can and oink like pigs. Charasmaticism is fine if it is just praying to the Holy spirit, or speaking in an intelleibile other launguage. But in my opinion its all lies and hype to liven up the faith when livening up in unessecary ITS NOT PART OF ROMAN CATHOLIC TRADITION SO DON'T PRETEND IT IS. But it also comes with Yelling during mass, screaming, oinking like a pig its just disgusting. ITs horribile.

I do not Doubt the Validity of the Novus Ordo Mass or Vatican II.

you say that the don't change doctrine?

well the they do.

the Doctrine of Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus

the whole movement is protestant infiltration into Holy Mother Church therefore they doubt the doctrine that Our Church Doctrine ONLY comes from what the Church prescribes.

the whole idea is a perverted form of Eccumenicism.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 23 2005, 06:28 PM'] THis speeking in tounges is a bad idea, it has NEVER been a part of our Tradition, and with the charasmatic movement it is protestantizing our Faith.
[/quote]
Speaking in tongues is part of Catholic tradition. I'm sure you've read Acts.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

once agian,

it was given the early members of the church to help get the church started.
Saint Augustine clearly states, "... This happened to announce something, (that the Gospel was to be announced to the ends of the earth), then disappeared." (See St. Augustine Chap 9).

Edited May 24, 2005 by Extra ecclesiam nulla salus