Mateo el Feo Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 (edited) [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 2 2005, 03:44 PM'] (5) Test everything. Hold fast to what is true. Reject that which is false (St Paul). My ten rules to assist the gullible in vovercoming their problem! [/quote] Well, since I'm gullible, I thought I would reiterate that I'm following your instruction #5 from St. Paul. Here's your quote: [quote name='LittleLes']The early Church Fathers taught the literal biblical interpretation that the sun revolved around the earth.[/quote] And my response: [quote name='Mateo el Feo']I've read some of the Early Church Fathers writings. I'd love to see you cite their words to show that they were such strict literalists. Less opinions, more proof, please?[/quote] Feel free to start a new thread. Alternatively, consider your instruction #10: [quote](10) Remain open to correcting ones views if they are proven to be in error.[/quote] Edited June 3, 2005 by Mateo el Feo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qoheleth Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 2 2005, 03:03 AM'] False analogy. Yeast does not contain all of the components of bread, nor their precursors. [/quote] And, as other people have mentioned, neither does a somatic cell contain all the mechanisms necessary to create a zygote. It contains an essential ingredient (which is why I compared it to the spermatozoon and the yeast), but it is not itself the entire recipe. Yeast can never become bread on its own, and never will unless it is "artificially" inserted into the proper medium (dough). So also for the nucleus of a somatic cell, as numerous posters here have stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 Hail Mateo el Feo! Hail! You speak well, you speak well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KizlarAgha Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='Qoheleth' date='Jun 2 2005, 10:00 PM'] And, as other people have mentioned, neither does a somatic cell contain all the mechanisms necessary to create a zygote. It contains an essential ingredient (which is why I compared it to the spermatozoon and the yeast), but it is not itself the entire recipe. Yeast can never become bread on its own, and never will unless it is "artificially" inserted into the proper medium (dough). So also for the nucleus of a somatic cell, as numerous posters here have stated. [/quote] :thumb: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='Jun 2 2005, 11:58 AM'] Actually, if you believe Newton, the Sun [u]does[/u] revolve around the Earth. LOL! [/quote] Indeed. Some Catholics believe that they still have to accept this longstanding (at least until 1700) Church teachings as a matter of faith. "The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures. " " The proposition that the earth is not the center of the world, nor immovable, but that it moves, and also with a diurnal action, is also absurd, philosophically false, and, theologically considered, at least erroneous in faith" As with yourself, some even try to claim scientific backing for this absurdity! "The proverbial "True Believer" is not allowed to admit that the Church's teachings were ever in error. But most people today understand that the earth does in fact move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Jun 2 2005, 08:32 PM'] The point is that the invitro zygote IS a person, and a somatic cell nuclei is not. After the somatic cell nuclei is placed into an ovum and stimulated to divide, THEN it is a person, equal in degnity and rights with every other. [/quote] Please provide your evidence that a zygote "is a person." Or is this an assumption you are making without any evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 3 2005, 08:07 AM'] Please provide your evidence that a zygote "is a person." Or is this an assumption you are making without any evidence? [/quote] The evidence that a Zygote is a person lies in your definition of human life. You still have not advanced your own definition dear LittleLes... prithee, how do you define human life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:17 AM']Indeed. Some Catholics believe that they still have to accept this longstanding (at least until 1700) Church teachings as a matter of faith.[/quote] Well, we Catholics accept that the Church is [i]the[/i] authority on matters of faith and morals. Now, if you believe that the Catholic must accept as infallible every word of every statement of every church tribunal, then this is incorrect. [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:17 AM']"The proposition that the sun is in the center of the world and immovable from its place is absurd, philosophically false, and formally heretical; because it is expressly contrary to Holy Scriptures. "[/quote] Well, the Tribunal's cardinals are in agreement with 21st century accepted science. Would you disagree? [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:17 AM']" The proposition that the earth is not the center of the world, nor immovable, but that it moves, and also with a diurnal action, is also absurd, philosophically false, and, theologically considered, at least erroneous in faith"[/quote] Personally, I think that the cardinals were mistaken in making a judgment against the Copernican model. First, I would argue against the idea that the Ptolemaic model of the universe was central to the Christian faith. Every Christian belief does not revolve around the claim of a fixed earth. Second, I believe that Einstein's Theory of Relativity calls into question the meaning of an object being "fixed" versus being "moved." Movement is a relative concept. So everything is potentially "fixed" or "moving" depending on the frame of reference. The speed of light ignores frames of reference, which further hides what is "fixed" and what is "moving." That fact always makes my head spin! So if you'd like to offer a way to definitively prove that something is fixed or moving, I'd like to see such proof. [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:17 AM']As with yourself, some even try to claim scientific backing for this absurdity! "The proverbial "True Believer" is not allowed to admit that the Church's teachings were ever in error. [/quote] I tell you what. Instead of claiming that my statements were false and using [i]ad hominem[/i], feel free to quote me and refute my words instead of making blanket statements about "True Believers." Considering your proven propensity to act as a "true believer" of disbelief, I would expect that you'd show a little more restraint when throwing out such accusations. [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 3 2005, 06:17 AM']But most people today understand that the earth does in fact move. [/quote] Regardless of the veracity of this statement, this is still the fallacy of bandwagon. Poll results don't determine truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+joyfulnoise+ Posted June 3, 2005 Share Posted June 3, 2005 +M ST MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, DEFEND US IN THIS DAY OF BATTLE BE OUR SAFEGUARD AGAINST THE WICKEDNESS AND THE SNARES OF THE DEVIL MAY GOD REBUKE HIM WE HUMBLY PRAY AND DO THOU O PRINCE OF HEAVENLY HOSTS BY THE POWER OF GOD CAST INTO HELL SATAN AND ALL THE EVIL SPIRITS WHO PROWL THROUGHOUT THE WORLD SEEKING THE RUIN OF SOULS. AMEN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 3 2005, 08:07 AM'] Please provide your evidence that a zygote "is a person." Or is this an assumption you are making without any evidence? [/quote] Uh... Yes. I did. My definition of person, philosophically sound and universally recognized until, oh 40 years ago, still stands, and is my evidence. You have yet to posit a definition of "person" that doesn't prove you philosophically and ideologically identical to the proponents of other 20th century genocides. Go for it. It's been asked of you AT LEAST 5 times now. ... but we'll probably have to wait longer because inevitably you will avoid the topic or try to divert attention away from it, as per your strategy WHENEVER you are challenged. "Party Line, Party Line, Party Line" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 [quote]definition of "person"[/quote] An entity capable of thought, intent and self-awareness? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 [quote name='+joyfulnoise' date='+Jun 3 2005, 11:51 AM'] +M ST MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL, DEFEND US IN THIS DAY OF BATTLE BE OUR SAFEGUARD AGAINST THE WICKEDNESS AND THE SNARES OF THE DEVIL MAY GOD REBUKE HIM WE HUMBLY PRAY AND DO THOU O PRINCE OF HEAVENLY HOSTS BY THE POWER OF GOD CAST INTO HELL SATAN AND ALL THE EVIL SPIRITS WHO PROWL THROUGHOUT THE WORLD SEEKING THE RUIN OF SOULS. AMEN. [/quote] My dear lady, your prayer is inspiring... God bless... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted June 4, 2005 Share Posted June 4, 2005 [quote name='Semalsia' date='Jun 3 2005, 08:23 PM'] An entity capable of thought, intent and self-awareness? [/quote] This falls short on many basis. A 4 year old is capable of thought? This can be debated. A man in a coma is incapable of thought, thus is not a person? Several court cases find the accused incapable of intent - insanity! And who is to define what is sane? Sooner or later this question would ultimately find it's way to politicians who essentially will vote who is human and who is not on the basis on thought alone (aka, anyone who believes in a God is insane). How about, hum... I don't know which example to choose anymore - a man knocked unconcious by a blow to the head... no longer a person thus legally can be killed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Jun 3 2005, 07:53 PM']Uh... Yes. I did. My definition of person, philosophically sound and universally recognized until, oh 40 years ago, still stands, and is my evidence. You have yet to posit a definition of "person" that doesn't prove you philosophically and ideologically identical to the proponents of other 20th century genocides. Go for it. It's been asked of you AT LEAST 5 times now. ... but we'll probably have to wait longer because inevitably you will avoid the topic or try to divert attention away from it, as per your strategy WHENEVER you are challenged. "Party Line, Party Line, Party Line" [right][snapback]606840[/snapback][/right] [/quote] And I think that I've answered this five times now. A person is an ensouled human being, ie, a being composed of an individual human body and an immaterial rational soul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cam42 Posted June 11, 2005 Share Posted June 11, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='Jun 10 2005, 07:26 PM']And I think that I've answered this five times now. A person is an ensouled human being, ie, a being composed of an individual human body and an immaterial rational soul. [right][snapback]609036[/snapback][/right] [/quote] Telling isn't it...that you have given an answer five times and you can't get your point across.... Perhaps you need to revise you answer. Or give a correct one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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