KobeScott8 Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Okay here is the deal I just started working at a Pizza place about a month ago. Me and my best friend, who also works there are outsiders, at least when it comes to morals. Usually religion doesn't come up much in the conversations we have at work. Sometimes they have questions about religion so I answer them, and everything seemed to be cool. I mean they don't believe what I believe, but at least they respect what I believe, you know that sort of thing. Well last night my friend wasn't working and somehow the abortion issue came up, and it became a 9 against one war.I stood my ground, but after a while I couldn't even get a word in. I know this is kinda about nothing but I guess I just need to vent off anger you know??? But any advice could be useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Ask them if they've ever seen an abortion. Or better yet, an unborn baby via ultrasound. As I've just recently seen my own daughter via ultrasound, I am convinced that with today's technology and the ease with which we can see and verify the life of the unborn one must be nothing less than a cold hearted killer to commit abortion. Before, I suppose, one could claim ignorance or the like... But there is just no excuse now. If they've never seen an ultrasound, then tell them to hold their vial tongues until they have. And if they still can say abortion is a woman's "rite", then they can wallow in their own poisonous denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KobeScott8 Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 Yeah, they say those abortions are wrong, but like when they in their first few weeks they say it's okay to have an abortion because it's not a human yet............... I don't get that!!!! Yeah it is a human Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 Hi Kobe.. Peace be with you [url="http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/index.htm"]http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/ab...mages/index.htm[/url] tell them to go to that site... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KobeScott8 Posted May 23, 2005 Author Share Posted May 23, 2005 Thank you so much for that site I sure will tell them to go there!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MC Just Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 some people believe that, the reason we want to end abortion is because we want to opress people and take their freedom away. That's just not the case. Abortion is wrong in so many ways. It is an attack on the human family and society, most of all it is slapping God in the face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MilesChristi Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 [quote]Yeah, they say those abortions are wrong, but like when they in their first few weeks they say it's okay to have an abortion because it's not a human yet [/quote] Based purely on biology, your coworkers are absolutely wrong. From the moment of conception a new individual life, distinct from both the mother and the father, comes into being. Biologically, what is the difference between a fetus in its first week and a 27 year old man? Only time and nourishment. Both have the 46 chromosomes found in humans. With time and nutrition provided by the mother, the fetus grows and develops; however, there is nothing else added to the fetus after conception which would make it human at a later time. Life clearly begins at conception. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 [quote name='MilesChristi' date='May 23 2005, 12:31 PM'] Based purely on biology, your coworkers are absolutely wrong. From the moment of conception a new individual life, distinct from both the mother and the father, comes into being. Biologically, what is the difference between a fetus in its first week and a 27 year old man? Only time and nourishment. Both have the 46 chromosomes found in humans. With time and nutrition provided by the mother, the fetus grows and develops; however, there is nothing else added to the fetus after conception which would make it human at a later time. Life clearly begins at conception. [/quote] Hi Miles, You are getting a bit into my area, here and I'm going to have to disagree with you. Actually, the term "moment of conception" doesn't have a precise meaning. Humor me. The correct term is "fertilization" or the formation of the gamete, the earliest form that has the complete set of chromosomes. I agree that after a certain developmental stage is reached, this will become a person, but it is not so initially. Each of our nonsex cells have the complete genetic set of chromosomes as well as the human gamete, but I doubt too many people will claim that each is a human being. Still, these can be grown in cell culture where they will reporduce and form (nearly) identical daughter cells. If a nucleus is removed from these daughter cells and is placed in a hollowed out ovum (no DNA), and implanted, in time a human being will be produced. This would be termed a clone. But I don't think it can be claimed that each of my cells, whether in my body or grown in cell culture, is in itself a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 No, but these cells will not make a person if left alone either, however a gamete will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='May 23 2005, 02:29 PM'] Hi Miles, You are getting a bit into my area, here and I'm going to have to disagree with you. Actually, the term "moment of conception" doesn't have a precise meaning. Humor me. The correct term is "fertilization" or the formation of the gamete, the earliest form that has the complete set of chromosomes. I agree that after a certain developmental stage is reached, this will become a person, but it is not so initially. Each of our nonsex cells have the complete genetic set of chromosomes as well as the human gamete, but I doubt too many people will claim that each is a human being. Still, these can be grown in cell culture where they will reporduce and form (nearly) identical daughter cells. If a nucleus is removed from these daughter cells and is placed in a hollowed out ovum (no DNA), and implanted, in time a human being will be produced. This would be termed a clone. But I don't think it can be claimed that each of my cells, whether in my body or grown in cell culture, is in itself a person. [/quote] "Moment of conception" does indeed have a precise meaning, and that is the same as "fertilization." At that point, the fertilized egg is a distinct organism, with its own DNA distinct from the mother's (the same DNA that person will have his entire life). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 23 2005, 05:16 PM'] No, but these cells will not make a person if left alone either, however a gamete will. [/quote] No, a gamete won't (unless like the case of single nuclear transfer) it is implanted. Under those conditions both have the same potential to develop into a person. Edited May 23, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='May 23 2005, 05:49 PM'] "Moment of conception" does indeed have a precise meaning, and that is the same as "fertilization." At that point, the fertilized egg is a distinct organism, with its own DNA distinct from the mother's (the same DNA that person will have his entire life). [/quote] I'm aftaid they aren't the same. How long a "moment" are you talking about? Up to 24 hours? Fertilization occurs once the sperm has already entered the ova and a zygote is formed. And if we're talking about a cloned humans, the DNA for all will be the same as the DNA of the father from whom the nuclei came. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 23, 2005 Share Posted May 23, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='May 23 2005, 06:30 PM'] Fertilization occurs once the sperm has already entered the ova and a zygote is formed. [/quote] This would be when I'm talking about. Abortions typically don't take place before then! (Contraception's another debate.) At this point a new human life is formed. When does a human life begin according to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 Here's an excellent article on the abortion debate: [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405fea2.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2004/0405fea2.asp[/url] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 24, 2005 Share Posted May 24, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' date='May 23 2005, 06:47 PM'] This would be when I'm talking about. Abortions typically don't take place before then! (Contraception's another debate.) At this point a new human life is formed. When does a human life begin according to you? [/quote] Hi Socrates, It is apparent from your question that you are confusing two different things: "human life" and "personhood" (or ensoulment). Each of the cells growing in my body, which also can be removed and grown in tissue cultures, is "human life" strictly speaking. And each daughter (offspring) cell would be "new life." But I doubt very much doubt you would want to argue that they are "persons" or ensouled human beings. The traditional Catholic teaching- Aquinas accepted Aristotle's teaching - is that ensoulment (or personhood) occurred at forty days after conception for males and eighty days for females. This changed in the late 1800's. While the timing was off, the concept of a zygote being different from a person was not. Also, that ensoulment occurs when the newly formed body is able to receive it. The basic philosophical concept here is that there cannot be a person until there is an individual. And individualization does not occur until about day 12 following fertilization. A number of biologically trained theologians recognize this distinction. But, since absolute certitude is not possible, we have to be guided by "probabilism." "The embryological view. In humans, identical twinning can occur as late as day 12 pc. Such twinning produces two individuals with different lives. Even conjoined ("Siamese") twins can have different personalities. Thus, a single individuality is not fixed earlier than day 12. (In religious terms, the two individuals have different souls). Some medical texts consider the stages before this time as a "pre-embryonic". This view is expressed by scientists such as Renfree (1982) and Grobstein (1988) and has been endorsed theologically by Ford (1988), Shannon and Wolter (1990), and McCormick (1991), among others. (Such a view would allow contraception, "morning after pills", and contragestational agents, but not abortion after two weeks). " (In some earlier posts I think I used the term "gamete" (sex cells), when I meant "zygote" or the earliest fertilized cell containing the full genetic complement. Littleles Edited May 24, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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