"John Paul the Great"

[Jaime]

Your opinion about Muslims is yours. Its not the Church's. If that fact has been beaten to death and you still haven't gotten it, then maybe it needs some more beating.

Not to mention the fact that your comments are completely against the rules of the site.

[Don John of Austria]

Well I have quoted many Church documents about it, I see only the quotes you like are acceptable.

I don't see anything there that is contrary to the site rules. which rule would you be saying I broke... I didn't say anything about Islam that is not true. And JPII is dead so criticism of him is no longer critisism of the Magestirium.

[Q the Ninja]

You know, it could be wrong, but only venial in his case?

It's not like you can judge how culpable he is for it, but I don't think you can really just say it's okay, REGARDLESS of his intentions.

[Q the Ninja]

The problem with this thread is "only a Sith deals in absolutes"...it means that you can't say that something is okay just because the Holy Father has done it.

Edited May 30, 2005 by Q the Ninja

[Cam42]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 29 2005, 06:26 PM']Hmm, not that this paragraph hasn't been discussed to death or anything, but where exactly does it say thay are our brethren... oh wait it doesn't.[/quote]
Don John....It doesn't need to. It is implied. What does it say again?

[quote]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC 841)[/quote]

Does the Church teach that the Muslims hold the faith of Abraham? Yes. Do they adore the same God? Yes. Regardless of what one's opinion might be or might not be, the Catechism is clear on the meaning. They are our brothers. While the relationship is strained, and it is by no means perfect, it remains the same, nevertheless.

They are judged by the same God on the last day.

The Catechism goes on to say:
[quote]To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son's Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is "the world reconciled." She is that bark which "in the full sail of the Lord's cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world." According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood. (CCC 845)[/quote]

This is not a very subtle implication, now is it, but it is the summation of CCC 839-844. Who is included in that? The Jews and the Muslims.

Whether one likes it or not, one must concede that the Church implies that a sibling relationship is donned by the Church in regard to the Jewish and Muslim traditions. Albeit they are less than perfected, because they don't accept Christ.

[quote]Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:


Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it. (CCC 846)[/quote]

Cam

[Aloysius]

it is a very important clause the catechism uses: "these [b]profess[/b] to hold the faith of Abraham"

there is the relationship. not that they actually do hold the faith of Abraham, but they profess to hold it. not that their religion actually holds the same God, but that they acknowledge the creator. A very very important distinction that keeps the Catechism in sync with previous doctrine and dogma and should not be overlooked.

[Qoheleth]

I think Catholics and Muslims are both aiming at the same God, but Scripture and Tradition give Catholics a clearer view.

[Good Friday]

I don't think everyone should be so quick to dismiss the kissing of the Koran as something which might preclude one from entering Heaven. I think it depends very much upon one's intention. Now, personally, I believe that Pope John Paul II had the best and most Christian intentions when he kissed the Koran. But with that said, the Church has a history of incredibly faithful martyrs who refused to pay homage to the holy things of other religions, and I daresay that there have been and will be again martyrs who have refused to pay homage to the Koran. Why? Because the Koran directly contradicts Catholic teaching, over and over again, and most importantly, it denies the divinity of Christ.

I am certain that the Congregation for the Causes of Saints, and the pope(s) who sit on the Chair of St. Peter while his cause for sainthood progresses, will discern whether or not his kissing of the Koran or any of his other words or actions bars Pope John Paul II from beatification and canonization. In the meantime, I am of the opinion that Catholics should refrain from calling him Pope John Paul the Great until after he is canonized. Once he is canonized, then we have it on the Church's infallible authority that he is in Heaven -- then we can talk about calling him "the Great." Until then, I think we should make way for the judgment of the Church and stop exercising so much of our own judgment.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 29 2005, 08:10 PM'] it is a very important clause the catechism uses: "these [b]profess[/b] to hold the faith of Abraham"

there is the relationship. not that they actually do hold the faith of Abraham, but they profess to hold it. not that their religion actually holds the same God, but that they acknowledge the creator. A very very important distinction that keeps the Catechism in sync with previous doctrine and dogma and should not be overlooked. [/quote]
Really???

We profess our faith at Mass every Sunday. By your logic, we don't actually hold it, but rather profess to hold it. Is that where you really want to go?

pro·fess

1. To affirm openly; declare or claim
4. To affirm belief in: profess Catholicism.

That is the definition. Careful Al, you are treading on very thin ice with that logic. It won't hold it's weight and you will be all wet.

Cam

[Good Friday]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl']The Pope died in a state of grace, so he is at least in Purgatory. Since he is at least in purgatory he can pray for all of us.

John Paul the Great, pray for us![/quote]
That's quite a leap. What we know is that Pope John Paul II received Last Rites before he died, which would have put him in a state of grace. What we do not know is whether or not he fell out of that state of grace before he died. I am of the opinion that he very likely did not, but we can't just assume that he died in a state of grace when, in actuality, we have no way of knowing that. Satan fights for our souls to the last breath; even after we have received Last Rites, he continues to fight, and he continues to try to make us curse God in our moment of suffering. I sincerely doubt that Pope John Paul II did this, but we cannot be [i]certain[/i]. Until the Church infallibly canonizes him, we cannot make any assumptions.

Also, until the Church beatifies him, public prayer to him (such as what you just did) is disobedience. Even after his beatification, public prayer will be restricted to the Diocese of Rome and possibly to his homeland, Poland. Only after canonization is public prayer throughout the Universal Church allowed. There is a reason that the Church has set it up this way. Refusing to submit to the Church's authority and praying to him in public anyway is disobedience.

And finally, to the others on this thread, we do Pope John Paul II a grave disservice by assuming that he's in Heaven. The Church exhorts us to pray for all of the departed, in the event that they are in Purgatory. Have we stopped to consider that it could be a trick of Satan that compels us to believe that he is in Heaven and therefore not pray for him? At this stage, when things are so uncertain, it is far better to be praying [i]for[/i] Pope John Paul II than [i]to[/i] him. Our opportunity to pray to him for his intercession will come after he is canonized, if he is canonized; for now, we should be doing what the Church tells us to do, we should be praying for his soul. Some would say that it is not loving to believe that he is not in Heaven; on the contrary, it is not loving to assume that he [i]is[/i] in Heaven and therefore not pray for him. By making such an assumption, we may be denying him our prayers, which could speed up his departure from Purgatory if he is in Purgatory. At this point, our assumption should be that he needs our prayers.

[Aloysius]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 29 2005, 09:35 PM'] Really???

We profess our faith at Mass every Sunday. By your logic, we don't actually hold it, but rather profess to hold it. Is that where you really want to go?

pro·fess

1. To affirm openly; declare or claim
4. To affirm belief in: profess Catholicism.

That is the definition. Careful Al, you are treading on very thin ice with that logic. It won't hold it's weight and you will be all wet.

Cam [/quote]
nope. the statement that someone professes to hold something says NOTHING other than that person claims to hold it. he may or may not actually hold it, but he claims to hold it.

you better believe the Church purposefully worded it that way, that Catechism's wording is all very deliberate.

there is a reason it said "these profess to hold" rather than "these hold"

[Aloysius]

Apotheon has said it much more gracefully than I can.

[quote]Catholics are free to hold any number of opinions on the nature of the Islamic religion. I would simply point out that paragraph 841 of the Catechism is not as clear-cut as some believe. It all depends upon what is meant by the phrase, ". . . these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Clearly there are two major components to this statement, and the first one, i.e., that Muslims "profess to hold the faith of Abraham," does not mean that they actually have the faith of Abraham, but only that they claim to possess Abraham's faith. Clearly, Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham, since they deny various elements of both the Old and New Testament revelation of God. As far as the second component of the phrase is concerned, it is true that Muslims adore with us, "one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." But this is simply an affirmation of the monotheistic nature of Islam, which is a natural good, but which is not based upon a valid supernatural revelation. Moreover, it must be borne in mind that this kind of statement issued by the Church's Magisterium is not the proper subject matter for a definitive pronouncement, because it can hardly be claimed as a datum of divine revelation that Muslims worship the true God; and so a Catholic is free to hold a view of Islam that sees it as a form of religious deception.[/quote]

check this out too
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5375"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5375[/url]
[quote]Spencer: Many believe that the Holy Father, by his kissing of the Koran, and Vatican II have taught that all religions worship the one true God to a greater or lesser degree, and that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and thus should not be evangelized. This is in fact not the case.

The Catechism, working from Vatican II's "Nostra Aetate," does say that, "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us adore one Merciful God, mankind's judge in the last day."

This is a carefully worded statement. It does not actually say that Muslims believe in Abraham's faith, but only that they profess to hold the faith of Abraham.

Professing and possessing are two different things: Certainly there are many more Christians who profess Christ than there are people who actually live for him. Nowhere does the Catechism say that Muslims are not eligible for the salvation that is in Christ, or that the Gospel should not be preached to them.

A recent article published in La Civiltà Cattolica was most interesting. Nothing is published in La Civiltà Cattolica without the approval of the Vatican Secretariat of State -- so the article probably corresponds to the views of some very high placed Vatican officials, if not the ailing Pope himself.

The Civiltà Cattolica piece represents the first indication that any Catholic Church officials recognize the dimensions of the religious conflict that jihadists are waging against Christians and others around the world.

The article brushes aside decades of misleading historical revisionism about the Muslim conquests, daring to point out that "in all the places where Islam imposed itself by military force, which has few historical parallels for its rapidity and breadth, Christianity, which had been extraordinarily vigorous and rooted for centuries, practically disappeared or was reduced to tiny islands in an endless Islamic sea."

Charity is essential; but it must not be confused with the temptation to ignore or deny unpleasant truths. This Civiltà Cattolica article is a step in the right direction.[/quote]

Anyway, back to the topic of JPII.

[popestpiusx]

Folks, The muslims are not our brethren. We have been at war with them for 1400 years. That war rages on in various forms. In the days of old, kissing the Koran was an act of apostacy. A captured Christian could save his life by kissing the Koran. Many a Christian went to his death rather than do such a thing. To kiss the Koran is to slap the martyrs in the face. It is perhaps the most scandalous thing that happened during the pontificate of Pope John Paul II. We must pray for his soul. Requiescat in pace!

[Cam42]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 29 2005, 09:24 PM']Apotheon has said it much more gracefully than I can.

[quote]Catholics are free to hold any number of opinions on the nature of the Islamic religion. I would simply point out that paragraph 841 of the Catechism is not as clear-cut as some believe. It all depends upon what is meant by the phrase, ". . . these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Clearly there are two major components to this statement, and the first one, i.e., that Muslims "profess to hold the faith of Abraham," does not mean that they actually have the faith of Abraham, but only that they claim to possess Abraham's faith. Clearly, Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham, since they deny various elements of both the Old and New Testament revelation of God. As far as the second component of the phrase is concerned, it is true that Muslims adore with us, "one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." But this is simply an affirmation of the monotheistic nature of Islam, which is a natural good, but which is not based upon a valid supernatural revelation. Moreover, it must be borne in mind that this kind of statement issued by the Church's Magisterium is not the proper subject matter for a definitive pronouncement, because it can hardly be claimed as a datum of divine revelation that Muslims worship the true God; and so a Catholic is free to hold a view of Islam that sees it as a form of religious deception.[/quote]

check this out too
[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5375"]http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=5375[/url]

[quote]Spencer: Many believe that the Holy Father, by his kissing of the Koran, and Vatican II have taught that all religions worship the one true God to a greater or lesser degree, and that Muslims are included in the plan of salvation and thus should not be evangelized. This is in fact not the case.

The Catechism, working from Vatican II's "Nostra Aetate," does say that, "the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims. These profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us adore one Merciful God, mankind's judge in the last day."

This is a carefully worded statement. It does not actually say that Muslims believe in Abraham's faith, but only that they profess to hold the faith of Abraham.

Professing and possessing are two different things: Certainly there are many more Christians who profess Christ than there are people who actually live for him. Nowhere does the Catechism say that Muslims are not eligible for the salvation that is in Christ, or that the Gospel should not be preached to them.

A recent article published in La Civiltà Cattolica was most interesting. Nothing is published in La Civiltà Cattolica without the approval of the Vatican Secretariat of State -- so the article probably corresponds to the views of some very high placed Vatican officials, if not the ailing Pope himself.

The Civiltà Cattolica piece represents the first indication that any Catholic Church officials recognize the dimensions of the religious conflict that jihadists are waging against Christians and others around the world.

The article brushes aside decades of misleading historical revisionism about the Muslim conquests, daring to point out that "in all the places where Islam imposed itself by military force, which has few historical parallels for its rapidity and breadth, Christianity, which had been extraordinarily vigorous and rooted for centuries, practically disappeared or was reduced to tiny islands in an endless Islamic sea."

Charity is essential; but it must not be confused with the temptation to ignore or deny unpleasant truths. This Civiltà Cattolica article is a step in the right direction.[/quote]


Anyway, back to the topic of JPII.[/quote]
I believe that I posted in that thread as well....did I not? I did. Appy and I don't agree. But so what...The Church is clear. Anything other than what she says is conjecture and opinion.

You are simply parroting the opinion of a few. Now that I know where you are coming from, [b]WHY[/b] are you coming from that position? What are your thoughts?

My thoughts are clear. I hold to what the Church teaches. I don't waver and I don't hold an opinion that is open to speculation.

You can quote all the articles you want, but the Catechism is clear.

Yes, back to JPII...He should not be seen as great yet. But it has nothing to do with whether or not he kissed the Koran. It has to do with the fact that we don't know the whole of his life. I would think that the whole of his life needs to be examined thoroughly before we start calling him "Magnus." Do we know for certain that he is above reproach? We don't. That is why we should reserve the title, for now. Will there be a time that we call him "Magnus?" I would hope so, but again, we should let him be dead for a while first.

Cam

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Good Friday' date='May 29 2005, 10:43 PM']
Also, until the Church beatifies him, public prayer to him (such as what you just did) is disobedience. Even after his beatification, public prayer will be restricted to the Diocese of Rome and possibly to his homeland, Poland. Only after canonization is public prayer throughout the Universal Church allowed. There is a reason that the Church has set it up this way. Refusing to submit to the Church's authority and praying to him in public anyway is disobedience.

[/quote]
Bull.

There is nothing disobedient except in your own mind.

Have you not heard faithful Bishops say the very same thing?
Do you not see the header at the top of this page?