Jaime Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 This whole Koran kissing thing is so completely ridiculous. Let's assume for the moment, that the folks who think it was a mistake are correct (I am not one of them btw). HE DID IT ONCE!! GET OVER IT ALREADY!! Holding grudges is so completely antithetical to what we are supposed to be. Forgiveness people! Let it go already. You were offended? It was years ago!! You think this act would preclude him from entering the gates of heaven? Then with all due respect, You're nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 I fail to see the wrong in JPII kissing the Koran... sorry. Can someone shed light on this? (instead of saying - he kissed the Koran, and kissing the Koran is wrong for a catholic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='May 29 2005, 11:35 AM'] This whole Koran kissing thing is so completely ridiculous. Let's assume for the moment, that the folks who think it was a mistake are correct (I am not one of them btw). HE DID IT ONCE!! GET OVER IT ALREADY!! Holding grudges is so completely antithetical to what we are supposed to be. Forgiveness people! Let it go already. You were offended? It was years ago!! You think this act would preclude him from entering the gates of heaven? Then with all due respect, You're nuts [/quote] [quote]It was years ago!! You think this act would preclude him from entering the gates of heaven?[/quote] It could. And if you think you can judge who is or is not going to heaven, or what or what may not preclude you from the gates of heaven, then with all do respect your a heretic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 actually, one can know what or what may not prevent people from heaven, simply not how it actually applies in specific cases. murder prevents you from heaven, but a murderer may or may not have gone to heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote name='Didacus' date='May 29 2005, 12:12 PM'] I fail to see the wrong in JPII kissing the Koran... sorry. Can someone shed light on this? (instead of saying - he kissed the Koran, and kissing the Koran is wrong for a catholic). [/quote] Simple the Koran is the "Holy Book" of Islam, it claims to be the actual word of God, it however teachs many, many, many things which are in direct contradiction to the Truths revealed in the Catholic Faith; Ergo it is a false book a lie built on Lies. So as it is a Lie built on lies it is at least in service to the Father of Lies-- Ie. Satan. Now by Kissing it John Paul should it respect at least love at worst, by showing it respect he showed respect to a book of lies, the book of lies that has been responsable for the deaths of countless Christians. He showed respect for a servent of Satan. THat he kissed the Koran is more than offensive it showing love for the Enemy and I don't mean the Muslims who embrace it , I mean the Enemy, Luciefer, Satan the Devil, the Father of Lies, what ever you want to call him. I think it certianly will keep him out of heaven, not necessarly permenantly but a good stay in purgation seems very likly for such an act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote]And if you think you can judge who is or is not going to heaven, or what or what may not preclude you from the gates of heaven, then with all do respect your a heretic.[/quote] Good Lord in Heaven Don, what a silly twist to my rant!! I should be offended by your suggestion that I am a heretic but it is so poorly based, I'm too busy laughing at you to muster up the energy to be ticked off! First of all, I do not think that the Holy Father was doing anything wrong by kissing the Koran. Second of all, while I may not judge what may or may not preclude one from heaven, I do know what will. There is only one sin that has been deemed unforgivable. And it ain't Koran kissing!! So why don't you ease up a bit on your heretic labeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote name='Aloysius' date='May 29 2005, 03:26 PM'] actually, one can know what or what may not prevent people from heaven, simply not how it actually applies in specific cases. murder prevents you from heaven, but a murderer may or may not have gone to heaven. [/quote] Well lets try this agian, power is iffy here. No the one can know that certian sins keep people out of heaven but one can never know if an act was an actual case of that sin, lets take the example you used murder. Murder is the intentioal act of Killing someone who has the right to life with the intent to kill. There is no way to ever determine if someone has commited the sin of murder, not ever, many people who kill illegally may not be guilty of murder and many who kill legally ( such as soldiers) may infact commit murderer. There is no way to know from the Act, so there is no way to know ever if an act will cause someone to go to hell or not, to say that one can determine that is to intrude on Gods peragatives, and that is heresy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='May 29 2005, 03:42 PM'] Good Lord in Heaven Don, what a silly twist to my rant!! I should be offended by your suggestion that I am a heretic but it is so poorly based, I'm too busy laughing at you to muster up the energy to be ticked off! First of all, I do not think that the Holy Father was doing anything wrong by kissing the Koran. Second of all, while I may not judge what may or may not preclude one from heaven, I do know what will. There is only one sin that has been deemed unforgivable. And it ain't Koran kissing!! So why don't you ease up a bit on your heretic labeling. [/quote] [quote]First of all, I do not think that the Holy Father was doing anything wrong by kissing the Koran. [/quote] Well that doesn't suprise me. [quote]Second of all, while I may not judge what may or may not preclude one from heaven, I do know what will. There is only one sin that has been deemed unforgivable. And it ain't Koran kissing!! [/quote] Actually kissing the Koran could very easily be blasphemy agianst the Holy Spirit. Depending on ones intent when kissing it. [quote] So why don't you ease up a bit on your heretic labeling[/quote]. I didn't call you aheretic I siad if you believed you could make those determinations you were a heretic, you are the only one who knows if you believe that you are Godflike in your abilities to make those determinations. But since you are one of the rudest people I have seen on this board I really don't think you have any room to talk, calling people nuts because they don't agree with you and your liberal interpretation of ecuminism is way out of line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote]I didn't call you aheretic I siad if you believed you could make those determinations you were a heretic, you are the only one who knows if you believe that you are Godflike in your abilities to make those determinations.[/quote] I get so tired of people hiding behind passive aggressive writing. "Oh I never called you a heretic. Perish the thought! How could you ever get that idea from what I wrote?" Please. [quote]But since you are one of the rudest people I have seen on this board I really don't think you have any room to talk[/quote] Much better. I can deal with directness. My statement of "nuts" was not about the ecumenicism (or lack thereof) of the Holy Father's actions. It was in regards to folks not letting things go. JPII did not convert to Islam JPII did not declare it to be the true faith. He kissed a Koran and people still bring it up. And while you feel that I'm being rude, bringing up one action that the Holy Father committed years ago and suggesting that it could be the reason that he has not entered heaven, is a nutty thing to do. People disagree with me all the time. You would be hard pressed to find where I have been to rude to them simply because we have divergent views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='May 29 2005, 04:24 PM'] I get so tired of people hiding behind passive aggressive writing. "Oh I never called you a heretic. Perish the thought! How could you ever get that idea from what I wrote?" Please. Much better. I can deal with directness. My statement of "nuts" was not about the ecumenicism (or lack thereof) of the Holy Father's actions. It was in regards to folks not letting things go. JPII did not convert to Islam JPII did not declare it to be the true faith. He kissed a Koran and people still bring it up. And while you feel that I'm being rude, bringing up one action that the Holy Father committed years ago and suggesting that it could be the reason that he has not entered heaven, is a nutty thing to do. People disagree with me all the time. You would be hard pressed to find where I have been to rude to them simply because we have divergent views. [/quote] nothing passive agressive at all about what I wrote, it was strait out agressive, let me spell it out for you. A. believeing one is able to determine the sinfulness of onothers act is intuding of God's peragatives, ie claiming to be like to God. B Claiming to be like to God is an Heretical act. C. ergo one who claims to be like to God is a heretic. If you are truely cliaming to have that Power & Authority then you are claiming to be like to God and are a heretic. I do not know if you ae truely claiming that or if you simply said something stupid-- we all do that occasionally-- but it is not passive agressive of me to say that I didn't say you are a heretic, I don't know your intent so I cannot say. [quote]He kissed a Koran and people still bring it up. And while you feel that I'm being rude, bringing up one action that the Holy Father committed years ago and suggesting that it could be the reason that he has not entered heaven, is a nutty thing to do. People disagree with me all the time. You would be hard pressed to find where I have been to rude to them simply because we have divergent views.[/quote] Not hard pressed at all I will direct you to the top of this page or perhaps to the paragraph quoted above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote]I do not know if you ae truely claiming that or if you simply said something stupid-- [/quote] A. Never did I claim to be like God (I can't even believe I have to spell that out to anyone) B. While I agree that people do say stupid things from time to time, there is nothing stupid about my statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Didacus Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 I believe that it is very simplistic thinking to hold kissing the Koran against JPII without knowing the context in which he did. If you do not understand the action, does not make it wrong, and instead of standing at the top of your chair and endulging in a name calling game you should seek the context, JPII's reasoning behind the action. (That name calling goes for hot stuff too, I cannot imagine anything very constructive from either of you in your past 4-5 postings). A little calm and mutual respect, please. The question is: What was the message JPII was trying to make as he kissed the Koran? Was it a reverance or simply a blessing as he would bless the soil of the nation he visited? What was the point, how was it received? Was it in respect of brothers who to him seeked God in their own way? I think we really have too little information to effectively continue a discussion on this subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 Problem here the Muslims are not our brethren, not in anyway, they are members of an opposing religion who's goal is the complete domination of the world. Now since the Goal of Catholicism is also the complete domination of the World this makes them our enimies not our brethren. Kissing the Koran was a mistake at least blaphemy at worst, but I don't know the mans heart so I have not made claims as to his fate, still it could easily be cause for ones damnation or purgation. I would contend that for a bishop to kiss the Koran is certianly worse than killing someone, perhaps worse than killing many people and way way worse than molesting children, let me repeat way way worse than molesting Children. It is the only act that I have ever seen that scandalized me so much as to concider that the Schismatics might be right and there was no one sitting on the seat of Peter. I didn't come to that conclusion but it was a serious breach of Trust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaime Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote] Problem here the Muslims are not our brethren, not in anyway[/quote] CCC 841 [quote] The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330[/quote] Not to be rude or anything, but you are incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted May 29, 2005 Share Posted May 29, 2005 [quote name='hot stuff' date='May 29 2005, 06:09 PM'] CCC 841 Not to be rude or anything, but you are incorrect. [/quote] Hmm, not that this paragraph hasn't been discussed to death or anything, but where exactly does it say thay are our brethren... oh wait it doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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