"John Paul the Great"

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 24 2005, 01:31 PM'] I wouldn't if I wasn't so certain.  If the Church came out and said 'hey, the Pope did all this horrid stuff bla bla bla' then obviously, I would be wrong and I would admit it, but until that happens then I stick with what I said.  I have faith that such a faithful servant to God is with Him in Heaven now. [/quote]
I hope that John Paul is in heaven, or at the very least he is in purgatory (which is all I can ever hope for), but until the Church declares that it to be mostly certain (which is all they can really do), we cannot be sure. No matter how we [i]feel[/i] about it. I have faith that God is all powerful and merciful and has His reasons for why He does things. Opinions matter not one wit.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Kilroy the Ninja

[Noel's angel]

One word and then I'll be gone:

[b]
FAITH[/b]

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 24 2005, 01:48 PM'] One word and then I'll be gone:

[b]
FAITH[/b] [/quote]
I believe you are confusing faith with opinion. Hoping that John Paul is with God is faith. Knowing he is, is opinion.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Kilroy the Ninja

[Guest Eremite]

The faith we place in the salvation of John Paul II is the same faith we place in private revelations, that is, human faith. It is based on human reason (eg, John Paul II was famous for his holiness), but unless the Church decides to officialy settle the matter, it rests on human faith (although, private revelations cannot be officially settled).

So long as we understand it is human faith, rather than divine and Catholic faith, the Church doesn't mind us believing a particular person is saved (not just John Paul II, of course; even family members).

[the lumberjack]

ok...who the heck does "the Church" ask if he's in heaven?

I mean, do they have a 1 800 number they dial?

to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...NO?!

then?!?

man, and I don't care WHAT man (or group of men) we're talking about here, can never say who is in heaven or not...much less if there's the third, optional place...purgatory.

[Paphnutius]

Generally the pope relies upon the guidance of the Spirit on such things. I am sure he would take advantage of 1-800 number if there were one, but usually the Spirit suffices.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='May 24 2005, 02:43 PM'] Generally the pope relies upon the guidance of the Spirit on such things. I am sure he would take advantage of 1-800 number if there were one, but usually the Spirit suffices. [/quote]

[Cam42]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='May 24 2005, 02:31 PM'] ok...who the heck does "the Church" ask if he's in heaven?

I mean, do they have a 1 800 number they dial?

to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord...NO?!

then?!?

man, and I don't care WHAT man (or group of men) we're talking about here, can never say who is in heaven or not...much less if there's the third, optional place...purgatory. [/quote]
Two ways.....

1. Public assention....the Church at large and as one body can declare a saint....rarely happens.

2. Congregation for the Saints....the process that most know.....

Here is an article about [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02364b.htm"]Beatification and Canonization[/url].

[Q the Ninja]

[quote name='Eremite' date='May 24 2005, 01:36 PM']
The Church places a lot of stock in our own opinions too. It's called the "sense of the faithful". [/quote]
What all do you know about the sense of the faithful?

[Guest Eremite]

The Catechism mentions it. I couldn't find a full article on it, though:

[quote]Throughout the ages, there have been so-called "private" revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ's definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium [ie, sense of the faithful] knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. (#67)[/quote]

[Q the Ninja]

There doesn't seem to be much beyond just private revelations mentioned there...

My point is that the Church doesn't rely much on individuals or the sense of the faithful for much.

Lastly, it's a negative power, meaning the faithful know when something's wrong, versus a positive, where they say something and the Magisterium then upholds it.

[Guest Eremite]

The Church has traditionally trusted the sensus fidelium in its canonization of Saints. This was particularly true in the early Church, when Sainthood was by popular acclamation, rather than an official process.

[Q the Ninja]

There is a reason that was stopped.

[Didacus]

[quote name='Kilroy the Ninja' date='May 24 2005, 01:29 PM']And that's the problem with the people of the Church today... we put too much stock in our own opinions.[/quote]
I agree that we cannot proclaim our opinions are a gospel truth, but we are allowed to them. Is it possible that JPII is in purgatory - absolutely! Then again, is it possible he is in heaven already in a state of SaintHood? Abosolutely!

The vatican waving the 5 year period to begin his beatification should be a clear indication of the vatican's position, AND CONFIDENCE that he is with God. Does this mean he is already a Saint? NO, of course not... but it is a clear indication from the people who lived the closest to him on an everyday basis. Sure there is a public image and a private image, but the waving of the 5 years came from the private side of the man.

Critics of the church (which are at many times unfairly cruel) migth say that waving the 5 years is simply a political ploy to 'cash in' on JPII's popularity one last time. I believe in the sincerity of the leaders of the church (I believe that the majority of them have made and remain true to their vows), thus I do not give such claims much importance.

TWO THINGS FOR CERTAIN;

1. The process of examining his SaintHood is well under way
2. Though maybe not great in his papacy, he certainly was great in many hearts he has inspired, including mine.

And last, I do not admit to, but share in the respect that the church is the 'entity' that must declare JPII's sainthood, and none, with certainty, can claim it before such an announcement. However, in our own private faith and vision of God, we are free to believe him in the state we see fit.

I believe he is great in his own respect, I believe he is with God. And I anxiously await a future church announcement declaring him so. Maybe I will be disapointed, but for the least, JPII will always be in sorts, my papa.

[Aloysius]

with the advent of modern mass media the Church created the necessary five year waiting period seeing that the sense of the faithful could be skewed.

if most of the Church throughout the world recognized saintliness in a person before television... now that was somethin with some supernatural merit. the worldwide cause for cannonization of JPII is skewed by mass media and thus we cannot say for certain if there is some supernatural sensum fidelium going on here.