"John Paul the Great"

[notuntilthefatladysings]

Good on ya Cam you've summed it up brilliantly

With all due respect we should be praying for John Paul II, not canonizing him according to the church of you me or the next person. If it be the will of God then Holy Mother the Church will canonize Pope JP2.

He needs our prayers more than our praise

I have much respect for JPII but feel that Pope St Pius X was the 'greatest' Pope of the 20th century.

God Bless Yass!!!

Notuntilthefatladysings

[Cam42]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 24 2005, 12:31 AM'] Our current pope thinks of JPII as in Heaven, so we may have reason for the hastiness. [/quote]
And this is more than speculation? Still no certainty.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Is he on the same level as Gregory, Leo, Basil and Albert? I don't know.....[/quote]

Yes.

PS: Pope St. Nicholas was also a Magnus.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Eremite' date='May 24 2005, 09:46 AM']
Yes.

PS: Pope St. Nicholas was also a Magnus. [/quote]
How is he as great as the other greats????

And not to quibble, but in most papal lists, Pope St. Nicholas I is listed as that, while Leo and Gregory are listed as Great.

And are you sure that John Paul II is to be listed with the greatest pope of all, Gregory I (the Great)? That is a big assertation....how do you come up with that?

I am also a great fan of Albertus Magnus, the teacher of Aquinas. Those are some pretty big shoes to fill as well. He is known also as the "Universal Doctor."

I am interested in your thoughts.

Cam

[Noel's angel]

If Pope John Paul II isn't in Heaven, there isn't much hope for the rest of us

Yes, he is Great. That is all

[Cam42]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 24 2005, 11:06 AM'] If Pope John Paul II isn't in Heaven, there isn't much hope for the rest of us

Yes, he is Great. That is all [/quote]
Again, how so?

Incidentally, the until the Church says that a person is a saint, there is no certainty. That is my point.

[Noel's angel]

True, but still, give the guy some credit-look at how he served God throughout his life, you can't fault that

[Guest Eremite]

Cam,

I think that John Paul II, particularly in his Encyclicals, was one of the greatest teaching Popes in history. He shaped a vision of truth and holiness that will, in my opinion, explode as the next few generations take the torch he passed on. I think his greatness lies not so much in temporal accomplishments during the pontificate itself, but rather, in the splendor of his teaching and witness; the only thing that prevented it from bearing massive fruit during the pontificate itself is that Catholics at large have yet to take it to heart.

His lasting contributions to Catholicism will include sexual theology (a "theological time-bomb", as George Weigel calls it), ecumenism (particularly the Encyclical Letter "Ut Unum Sint"), his philosophical depth (see, for example, "Fides et Ratio"), his significant efforts to purge the Church of the "theology of contempt" in relation to Judaism, and most importantly, he will be known as the Pope who built a much needed bridge between pre- and post-conciliar Catholicism.

While "greatnesshood" should include temporal considerations, I think the time in which John Paul exercised his papacy greatly mitigates that factor. All other "Greats" exercised their papacies in Catholic worlds, with relative order in society. John Paul found himself in a neo-pagan world; the sexual revolution and the general degeneration of society, to which many Christians had been seduced, made it almost impossible for him to expect massive temporal results. I think he understood this himself, which is why he focused on building up a storehouse of theology and holiness, so that it will be there when this generation dies off, and the next examines why it is so empty. This is not to say he didn't have temporal success (he brought down a large bloc of communism, in fulfillment of Fatima's prophecy).

I can see why someone would argue against him being acclaimed as Joannes Paulus Magnus. I disagree, but I understand. But I think the judgement of history will make the correct choice.

As for Pope St. Nicholas, the old Catholic Encyclopedia list of Popes includes (the great) after all three Popes. I'm not sure if the official Vatican list does, but I would imagine so.

[Noel's angel]

nice answer

[Q the Ninja]

Eremite, greatness isn't decided by what they wrote, that's for the Doctors.

Noel's angel, we don't know what he was like in private, and for all we know, he could have committed many mortal sins that we'd never know about. Part of the problem is that know very little and are used to the image he presented. I run into this all the time with anyone I know well, the perceptions of them are different in person and in crowds.

God Conquers, besides just talking to crowds morning the recent Holy Father's death, those opinions of the current Holy Father are personal opinions and nothing more. Also, I do believe in a place or two he implied that there is the possibility of the Holy Father in Purgatory, and may have even said we need to pray for him.

[Noel's angel]

I do pray for him, but I cannot for one minute, believe that he died in anything other than, a state of grace. Yes, it's my opinion, but I trust it, even if you don't

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 24 2005, 01:20 PM'] I do pray for him, but I cannot for one minute, believe that he died in anything other than, a state of grace. Yes, it's my opinion, but I trust it, even if you don't [/quote]
And that's the problem with the people of the Church today... we put too much stock in our own opinions.

[Noel's angel]

I wouldn't if I wasn't so certain. If the Church came out and said 'hey, the Pope did all this horrid stuff bla bla bla' then obviously, I would be wrong and I would admit it, but until that happens then I stick with what I said. I have faith that such a faithful servant to God is with Him in Heaven now.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]Eremite, greatness isn't decided by what they wrote, that's for the Doctors[/quote]

There are no set rules for proclaiming someone a Magnus. And as I layed out in the post, it's not his writings alone that make him great, but their remarkable place in Catholic history, and the effect they have and will have on the Church and the world.

[Guest Eremite]

[quote]we put too much stock in our own opinions.[/quote]

The Church places a lot of stock in our own opinions too. It's called the "sense of the faithful".