Will Europe go the way of Byzantium?

[Ash Wednesday]

You are a zucchetto party animal.

[theculturewarrior]

I know that God's Mercy is big enough for Europe, and I know that God's Mercy is big enough for Constantinople. God's Mercy is big enough for the most vile criminal, and the most hard hearted satanist. I see, that all of mankind is big enough for God's Mercy, because He created us to be His children, and to know that life is beautiful, because He is the Author of Life, and He has written His Love for us on our souls. And if anybody in Europe or Constantinople or Europe are condemned, it will be what they have written. God writes only life.

And I know this, because God is Merciful, and He had Mercy on me, and every second of life we live and breathe, it is because God is Merciful, and He has written the stories of our lives, and He only writes Beauty and Life. The rest is what we have written.

It is better for me, when I am tempted to think I am perfect, to remember that God created all of us to be perfect. His Mercy is His Desire that we be saved. He loves all of Mankind like a Father, and He loves to be a Father to orphans.

This is what He has written in me. I have only written my sins.

[KizlarAgha]

Constantinople fell to Islam because the Europeans got tired of crusading, pure and simple. While everyone harps on the fourth crusade for sacking the city in 1204, the city wouldn't have been there to be sacked were it not for the first three crusades.

Europe is not under direct military threat from the East, therefore, it cannot go the way of Constantinople. The attacks on Christendom these days come from within. They come from protestantism, from secular humanism, and from nationalistic tendencies. I hear people tell me that they are "pro-choice catholics" here in California. And I tell them, "There's no such thing."

It is this culture was that is destroying the fabric of society - European and American alike. I must say, the world has never been such a cruel and heartless place.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 23 2005, 10:21 AM'] Constantinople fell to Islam because the Europeans got tired of crusading, pure and simple. While everyone harps on the fourth crusade for sacking the city in 1204, the city wouldn't have been there to be sacked were it not for the first three crusades.

Europe is not under direct military threat from the East, therefore, it cannot go the way of Constantinople. The attacks on Christendom these days come from within. They come from protestantism, from secular humanism, and from nationalistic tendencies. I hear people tell me that they are "pro-choice catholics" here in California. And I tell them, "There's no such thing."

It is this culture was that is destroying the fabric of society - European and American alike. I must say, the world has never been such a cruel and heartless place. [/quote]
While i agree with you in most of that post I would differ on one thing, Europe is thereatened by the East. Spain and France are both beingoverrun by Islam , the rest will follow.

[God Conquers]

Constantinople was essentially eclipsed by European culture.

Its falling to the muslims wasn't the critical point, but the result of a much earlier fall from grace.

How was it eclipsed? Its vibrant Christian culture was lost. It separated itself from the Church, and the world shifted its cultural, religious and economic center from the Mediteranean onto Europe.



In the same token, I believe Europe has already fallen. The Reformation ravaged it and the 'Enlightenment' and modernist revolutions were a result of that.
The faith was lost, and so was their place in the world.

The main stage of the world has been for the past 150 years North America (despite the world wars in Europe, we know the major results in those wars were dependent upon NA influence).

I think we are quickly losing our place.

It is a war of Culture, and always has been...

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 23 2005, 05:20 PM'] Constantinople was essentially eclipsed by European culture.

Its falling to the muslims wasn't the critical point, but the result of a much earlier fall from grace.

How was it eclipsed? Its vibrant Christian culture was lost. It separated itself from the Church, and the world shifted its cultural, religious and economic center from the Mediteranean onto Europe.
[/quote]
That's really not the case at all. The fall of Constantinople saw the rise and zenith of great mediterranean powers like the Venetians and the increased power of the Ottoman sultanate. Europe didn't become a place of high culture on a worldwide scale until the 18th century in my mind.

[God Conquers]

What!?

The High Middle Ages (12th to 13th C) were THE HIEGHT of European Culture.

Europe was dying by the 18th C. 100 yrs of nontop warfare.

[argent_paladin]

So, you are saying that Europe was weaker in 1800 than it was in 1700? During that century, the British empire continued to grow, as did the French and Dutch. The majority of the world's population was directly or indirectly ruled by European countries. The best authors, musicians, scientists, etc in the world were in Europe. Militarily, no continent could come close to European power. Two continents, North and South America were being conquered by Europeans in this period.
And you have to give more support for the 12-13th c being the high point of European culture. It wasn't so for literature or music, nor for science or engineering, or politics or history. It was for philosophy and perhaps theology. And maybe architecture. But Europe wasn't even the most cultured part of the world, China and the Middle East were enjoying greater civilization.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 24 2005, 12:28 AM'] What!?

The High Middle Ages (12th to 13th C) were THE HIEGHT of European Culture.

Europe was dying by the 18th C. 100 yrs of nontop warfare. [/quote]
I completely agree, The High Middle Ages is the penical of culture for all of history, by 1700 European culture was already almost dead.


Argent Paladin-- I would heartily disagree on the issue of science, certianly the great scientist of the world in the 12th and 13th century where in Europe. However I don't concider the progress of Science to be a sign of Cultural significance so I guess that doesn't really matter. As for Politices I completly disagree the 12th century was the High of political development for anynation anywhere, we have now spent 800 years going backward. Music and literature both flrished in the Middle Ages, Much of what was composed no longer survives so it is hard to make judgements of value, but I would remind you the that before the Middle Ages there was no means for writting music.


Please tell me what you concider to be " cultured".

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='May 24 2005, 07:28 AM'] The High Middle Ages (12th to 13th C) were THE HIEGHT of European Culture. [/quote]
Long Live the Enlightenment..

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 24 2005, 08:11 AM'] I completely agree, The High Middle Ages is the penical of culture for all of history, by 1700 European culture was already almost dead.


Argent Paladin-- I would heartily disagree on the issue of science, certianly the great scientist of the world in the 12th and 13th century where in Europe. However I don't concider the progress of Science to be a sign of Cultural significance so I guess that doesn't really matter. As for Politices I completly disagree the 12th century was the High of political development for anynation anywhere, we have now spent 800 years going backward. Music and literature both flrished in the Middle Ages, Much of what was composed no longer survives so it is hard to make judgements of value, but I would remind you the that before the Middle Ages there was no means for writting music.


Please tell me what you concider to be " cultured". [/quote]
Look, I consider the height of world culture to be 12th and 13th century europe - that's my obsession. However, at the time, Europe wasn't the height of scientific learning - Islam was. You need to study the translation schools of Toledo, and the interchange of ideas between Christians and Muslims. In fact, Thomas Aquinas once said in a paper that he needed to be precise lest "the Saracens laugh at us."

Islam was at the top of its game in the 12th and 13th century, superior in many ways to what europe had to offer. As the 13th century progressed, we see a leveling of the playing field so to speak. The 13th century really was an incredible period for European growth and development. It is ironic that the fall of Akka coincided with the zenith of European power and splendor (or very nearly)

However, my point was that the seat of power never shifted to Europe from Byzantium. They were never really one contiguous whole after about the 5th century. A series of losses in warfare led to the fall of Constantinople due to the Byzantine empire's reliance on mercenary troops and its inability to exert effective control over its own provinces. When Constantinople fell in 1453, the Sultan Mehmet II repopulated it and the city quickly became the most splendid in the world - again.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 20 2005, 07:22 PM'] Ireland is safe [/quote]
Ireland is safe because it's a decent country with powerful friendly neighbours.

[Noel's angel]

lol, very true. Plus they have me

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='Noel's angel' date='May 24 2005, 06:32 PM'] lol, very true. Plus they have me [/quote]
that's true, they'd have to be totally crazy to invade.

[Noel's angel]

ha ha!!!