Socrates Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 (edited) Our good friend Littleles has tried to argue that Jesus Christ was not considered divine by the early Church. Here is yet more evidence against him, citing Scripture and the early Church Fathers. Enjoy! THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST There is no doubt that the New Testament declares Jesus to be God. Even liberal and non-Christian Bible scholars will admit this. Jesus’ divinity is shown again and again. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God." In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God, "I AM" or "Yahweh." His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). At the end of the Gospels, in John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming "My Lord and my God!" In Philippians 2:6, Paul writes of Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." As the following quotations, show, the Church Fathers also recognized the divinity of Christ and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth. The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus’] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: ‘Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me" (Huleatt Manuscript fragments 1–3 [A.D. 50]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ignatius "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]). "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tatian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Melito "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus "[T]o Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clement of Alexandria "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]). "Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tertullian "God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ, for Christ is also God" (The Soul 41:3 [A.D. 210]). "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]). "That there are two Gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as Gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Origen "Although he was God, he took flesh, and, having been made man, he remained what he was, God" (Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]). "While we have been sketching the proof of the divinity of Jesus, we have made use of the prophetic statements concerning him and have at the same time demonstrated that the writings which prophesied about him are divinely inspired" (ibid., 4:1:6). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hippolytus "Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]). "For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cyprian "One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]" (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Thaumaturgus "There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect Begetter of the perfect Begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arnobius "‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘Is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lactantius "He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh—that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]). "We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilary "You have, therefore, a God who was seen on earth and who dwelt among men. . . . Who, therefore, is he that has been seen on earth and who dwelt among men? Certainly he is our God, and he is God visible in human form and tangible. . . . This, therefore, is the One who makes covenant with Abraham, who speaks to Moses, who testifies to Israel, who abides in the prophets, who is born through the Virgin and of the Holy Spirit, who affixes to the tree of his passion the powers opposed and inimical to us. . . . The prophet [Jeremiah] does not permit God, the Son of God, to be compared to another god, for the reason that he is God" (The Trinity 3:42 [A.D. 357]). Edited May 19, 2005 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 19, 2005 Author Share Posted May 19, 2005 Christ’s divinity is shown over and over again in the New Testament. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God." In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). In John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming, "My Lord and my God!" (Greek: Ho Kurios mou kai ho Theos mou—literally, "The Lord of me and the God of me!") In Philippians 2:6, Paul tells us that Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped" (New International Version). So Jesus chose to be born in humble, human form though he could have simply remained in equal glory with the Father for he was "in very nature God." Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8). As the following quotes show, the early Church Fathers also recognized that Jesus Christ is God and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth. Ignatius of Antioch "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]). "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2). "[T]o the Church beloved and enlightened after the love of Jesus Christ, our God, by the will of him that has willed everything which is" (Letter to the Romans 1 [A.D. 110]). Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the Creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]). Tatian the Syrian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]). Melito of Sardis "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]). Irenaeus "For the Church, although dispersed throughout the whole world even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and from their disciples the faith in one God, Father Almighty, the creator of heaven and earth and sea and all that is in them; and in one Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who became flesh for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who announced through the prophets the dispensations and the comings, and the birth from a Virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the bodily ascension into heaven of the beloved Christ Jesus our Lord, and his coming from heaven in the glory of the Father to reestablish all things; and the raising up again of all flesh of all humanity, in order that to Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth . . . " (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1). Clement of Alexandria "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning—for he was in God—and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man, and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]). "Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the expiator, the Savior, the soother, the divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1). Tertullian "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]). "That there are two gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]). Origen "Although he was God, he took flesh; and having been made man, he remained what he was: God" (The Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]). Hippolytus "Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]). Hippolytus of Rome "For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34). Novatian "If Christ was only man, why did he lay down for us such a rule of believing as that in which he said, ‘And this is life eternal, that they should know you, the only and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent?’ [John 17:3]. Had he not wished that he also should be understood to be God, why did he add, ‘And Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent,’ except because he wished to be received as God also? Because if he had not wished to be understood to be God, he would have added, ‘And the man Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent;’ but, in fact, he neither added this, nor did Christ deliver himself to us as man only, but associated himself with God, as he wished to be understood by this conjunction to be God also, as he is. We must therefore believe, according to the rule prescribed, on the Lord, the one true God, and consequently on him whom he has sent, Jesus Christ, who by no means, as we have said, would have linked himself to the Father had he not wished to be understood to be God also. For he would have separated himself from him had he not wished to be understood to be God" (Treatise on the Trinity 16 [A.D. 235]). Cyprian of Carthage "One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit] . . . " (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]). Gregory the Wonderworker "There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect begetter of the perfect begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal. . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]). Arnobius "‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]). Lactantius "He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh, that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]). "We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God, and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29). Council of Nicaea I "We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the Father. Through him all things were made" (Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]). "But those who say, ‘There was a time when he [the Son] did not exist,’ and ‘Before he was born, he did not exist,’ and ‘Because he was made from non-existing matter, he is either of another substance or essence,’ and those who call ‘God the Son of God changeable and mutable,’ these the Catholic Church anathematizes" (Appendix to the Creed of Nicaea [A.D. 325]). Patrick of Ireland "Jesus Christ is the Lord and God in whom we believe, and whose coming we expect will soon take place, the judge of the living and the dead, who will render to everyone according to his works" (Confession of St. Patrick 4 [A.D. 452]). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 20, 2005 Author Share Posted May 20, 2005 Bump for Littleles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 [quote name='Socrates' date='May 19 2005, 04:29 PM'] Our good friend Littleles has tried to argue that Jesus Christ was not considered divine by the early Church. Here is yet more evidence against him, citing Scripture and the early Church Fathers. Enjoy! THE DIVINITY OF CHRIST There is no doubt that the New Testament declares Jesus to be God. Even liberal and non-Christian Bible scholars will admit this. Jesus’ divinity is shown again and again. For example, in John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God." In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God, "I AM" or "Yahweh." His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59). At the end of the Gospels, in John 20:28, Thomas falls at Jesus’ feet, exclaiming "My Lord and my God!" In Philippians 2:6, Paul writes of Christ Jesus "[w]ho, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped." As the following quotations, show, the Church Fathers also recognized the divinity of Christ and were adamant in maintaining this precious truth. The Huleatt Manuscript "She poured it [the perfume] over his [Jesus’] hair when he sat at the table. But, when the disciples saw it, they were indignant. . . . God, aware of this, said to them: ‘Why do you trouble this woman? She has done [a beautiful thing for me" (Huleatt Manuscript fragments 1–3 [A.D. 50]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ignatius "Ignatius, also called Theophorus, to the Church at Ephesus in Asia . . . predestined from eternity for a glory that is lasting and unchanging, united and chosen through true suffering by the will of the Father in Jesus Christ our God" (Letter to the Ephesians 1 [A.D. 110]). "For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit" (ibid., 18:2). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Aristides "[Christians] are they who, above every people of the earth, have found the truth, for they acknowledge God, the creator and maker of all things, in the only-begotten Son and in the Holy Spirit" (Apology 16 [A.D. 140]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tatian "We are not playing the fool, you Greeks, nor do we talk nonsense, when we report that God was born in the form of a man" (Address to the Greeks 21 [A.D. 170]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Melito "It is no way necessary in dealing with persons of intelligence to adduce the actions of Christ after his baptism as proof that his soul and his body, his human nature, were like ours, real and not phantasmal. The activities of Christ after his baptism, and especially his miracles, gave indication and assurance to the world of the deity hidden in his flesh. Being God and likewise perfect man, he gave positive indications of his two natures: of his deity, by the miracles during the three years following after his baptism, of his humanity, in the thirty years which came before his baptism, during which, by reason of his condition according to the flesh, he concealed the signs of his deity, although he was the true God existing before the ages" (Fragment in Anastasius of Sinai’s The Guide 13 [A.D. 177]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Irenaeus "[T]o Jesus Christ our Lord and God and Savior and King, in accord with the approval of the invisible Father, every knee shall bend of those in heaven and on Earth and under the earth" (Against Heresies 1:10:1 [A.D. 189]). "Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (ibid., 3:19:1). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Clement of Alexandria "The Word, then, the Christ, is the cause both of our ancient beginning, for he was in God, and of our well-being. And now this same Word has appeared as man. He alone is both God and man and the source of all our good things" (Exhortation to the Greeks 1:7:1 [A.D. 190]). "Despised as to appearance but in reality adored, [Jesus is] the Expiator, the Savior, the Soother, the Divine Word, he that is quite evidently true God, he that is put on a level with the Lord of the universe because he was his Son" (ibid., 10:110:1). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tertullian "God alone is without sin. The only man who is without sin is Christ, for Christ is also God" (The Soul 41:3 [A.D. 210]). "The origins of both his substances display him as man and as God: from the one, born, and from the other, not born" (The Flesh of Christ 5:6–7 [A.D. 210]). "That there are two Gods and two Lords, however, is a statement which we will never allow to issue from our mouth; not as if the Father and the Son were not God, nor the Spirit God, and each of them God; but formerly two were spoken of as Gods and two as Lords, so that when Christ would come, he might both be acknowledged as God and be called Lord, because he is the Son of him who is both God and Lord" (Against Praxeas 13:6 [A.D. 216]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Origen "Although he was God, he took flesh, and, having been made man, he remained what he was, God" (Fundamental Doctrines 1:0:4 [A.D. 225]). "While we have been sketching the proof of the divinity of Jesus, we have made use of the prophetic statements concerning him and have at the same time demonstrated that the writings which prophesied about him are divinely inspired" (ibid., 4:1:6). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hippolytus "Only [God’s] Word is from himself and is therefore also God, becoming the substance of God" (Refutation of All Heresies 10:33 [A.D. 228]). "For Christ is the God over all, who has arranged to wash away sin from mankind, rendering the old man new" (ibid., 10:34). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Cyprian "One who denies that Christ is God cannot become his temple [of the Holy Spirit]" (Letters 73:12 [A.D. 253]) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Gregory Thaumaturgus "There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is his subsistent wisdom and power and eternal image: perfect Begetter of the perfect Begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, only of the only, God of God, image and likeness of deity, efficient Word, wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, invisible of invisible, and incorruptible of incorruptible, and immortal of immortal and eternal of eternal . . . And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever" (Declaration of Faith [A.D. 265]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Arnobius "‘Well, then,’ some raging, angry, and excited man will say, ‘Is that Christ your God?’ ‘God indeed,’ we shall answer, ‘and God of the hidden powers’" (Against the Pagans 1:42 [A.D. 305]). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lactantius "He was made both Son of God in the spirit and Son of man in the flesh—that is, both God and man" (Divine Institutes 4:13:5 [A.D. 307]). "We, on the other hand, are [truly] religious, who make our supplications to the one true God. Someone may perhaps ask how, when we say that we worship one God only, we nevertheless assert that there are two, God the Father and God the Son—which assertion has driven many into the greatest error . . . [thinking] that we confess that there is another God and that he is mortal. . . . [But w]hen we speak of God the Father and God the Son, we do not speak of them as different, nor do we separate each, because the Father cannot exist without the Son, nor can the Son be separated from the Father" (ibid., 4:28–29). -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hilary "You have, therefore, a God who was seen on earth and who dwelt among men. . . . Who, therefore, is he that has been seen on earth and who dwelt among men? Certainly he is our God, and he is God visible in human form and tangible. . . . This, therefore, is the One who makes covenant with Abraham, who speaks to Moses, who testifies to Israel, who abides in the prophets, who is born through the Virgin and of the Holy Spirit, who affixes to the tree of his passion the powers opposed and inimical to us. . . . The prophet [Jeremiah] does not permit God, the Son of God, to be compared to another god, for the reason that he is God" (The Trinity 3:42 [A.D. 357]). [/quote] Hi Socrates, I'm afraid that there are problems with your argument. (1) First of all, you begin with the statement that "There is no doubt that the New Testament declares Jesus to be God." That's a pretty broad statement. Mine is that none of the synoptic gospels report, nor do they report Jesus making such a claim. (2) Most of your N.T. quotations are from John. John wrote about 90 -125 A.D. and equates Jesus with "The Word" or Logos, a concept taken from Greek thought and expressed in gnostic teachings. I was planning to introduce this as a seprate thread after I finish with Paul's teachings. (3) I note that all for your quotations are of much later dates save one. (4) And that is the Huleatt manuscript discovered by Charles Huleatt in 1901 which he himself dates as being from the 4th century. Other scriptural scholars date this somewhat earlier, say as early as the second or third century, but only one a Casten Thiede (sp?) claims 75 AD [not 50 A.D]. Obviously, he hasn't really proven his claim, but regarding the assertion of authorship of 50 A.D., it is doubtful that we would have a copy of Matthew made before Matthew had written the original. LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='May 20 2005, 01:33 PM'](1) First of all, you begin with the statement that "There is no doubt that the New Testament declares Jesus to be God." That's a pretty broad statement. Mine is that none of the synoptic gospels report, nor do they report Jesus making such a claim.[/quote] This is a pretty common tactic for those who reject Our Lord's divinity. First, they say, "Prove it without St. Paul's letters." Then, "Prove it without the Gospel of St. John." Then, when you prove that the Synoptics reveal Our Lord's divinity, they say, "I won't believe because Our Lord is never quoted as saying, 'I am God.'" Of course, those who reject the divinity of Our Lord also reject the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. It's hard for me to understand why anyone who rejects the Gospel of John would even care what was written in the Synoptic Gospels. Here's a [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=divinity+jesus+synoptic"]Google search (link)[/url]. There's plenty of info on the 'net about this topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 20, 2005 Author Share Posted May 20, 2005 (edited) [quote name='LittleLes' date='May 20 2005, 12:33 PM'] Hi Socrates, I'm afraid that there are problems with your argument. (1) First of all, you begin with the statement that "There is no doubt that the New Testament declares Jesus to be God." That's a pretty broad statement. Mine is that none of the synoptic gospels report, nor do they report Jesus making such a claim. (2) Most of your N.T. quotations are from John. John wrote about 90 -125 A.D. and equates Jesus with "The Word" or Logos, a concept taken from Greek thought and expressed in gnostic teachings. I was planning to introduce this as a seprate thread after I finish with Paul's teachings. (3) I note that all for your quotations are of much later dates save one. (4) And that is the Huleatt manuscript discovered by Charles Huleatt in 1901 which he himself dates as being from the 4th century. Other scriptural scholars date this somewhat earlier, say as early as the second or third century, but only one a Casten Thiede (sp?) claims 75 AD [not 50 A.D]. Obviously, he hasn't really proven his claim, but regarding the assertion of authorship of 50 A.D., it is doubtful that we would have a copy of Matthew made before Matthew had written the original. LittleLes [/quote] (1) There is plenty in the "synoptic" Gospels showing that Jesus is divine. We've been over this before. Examples include God's testimony at Christ's Baptism and the the Transfiguration, and Christ's reply when being interrogated by the Sanhedrin. The fact that you try to weasel around what these gospels clearly state does not discredit it's validity. (2) Throwing out John is a cop-out. John was an eyewitness and apostle of Christ (and the modernists have no solid evidence to deny what Christian tradition has always affirmed). And John is not gnostic. Gnosticism is a philosophy opposed to orthdox Christianity. John is not a gnostic gospel, but is universally accepted by the Church. The real reason you disregard John is that its declarations of Christ's divinity are too numerous and too blatant for even you to weasel around. (3) Some of these quotes are from the early second century, within living memory of Christ, and certainly reflect the teachings of the "Early Church." The evidence certainly contradicts your assertions that the Church did not teach the divinity of Christ until the 4th century or so. (4) Almost everything I could find on the Huleatt Manuscript dates it at ca. AD 50. Recent scientific evidence shows that it is much older than originally beleived.[quote]Magdalen Papyrus (P64) Magdalen Papyrus (P64) The papyrus scraps had been housed at the library of Magdalen College for more than 90 years, the gift of a British chaplain, Rev. Charles Huleatt, who bought them at an antiquities market in Luxor, Egypt. Using new tools such as a scanning laser microscope along with more conventional handwriting analysis, Thiede re-dates the fragments, previously dated in the mid- to late second century, to sometime between 30 and 70 A.D. [/quote] [http://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html#P64] As to the manuscript being "written before Matthew wrote the original," maybe this just shows that Matthew was written earlier than the Modernist "scholars" assert. What solid evidence do you have that Matthew was written at a later date? "Modernist" reasoning is circular. They claim without proof that everything that contains things they disbeleive in was written much later (therefore unreliable), and ignore any evidence which might contradict their "party line" which disbeleives in the divinity of Christ and the miraculous. Nothing more sad than a Modernist "True beleiver." Edited May 20, 2005 by Socrates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 [quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 20 2005, 01:13 PM'] This is a pretty common tactic for those who reject Our Lord's divinity. First, they say, "Prove it without St. Paul's letters." Then, "Prove it without the Gospel of St. John." Then, when you prove that the Synoptics reveal Our Lord's divinity, they say, "I won't believe because Our Lord is never quoted as saying, 'I am God.'" Of course, those who reject the divinity of Our Lord also reject the divine inspiration of the Holy Scriptures. It's hard for me to understand why anyone who rejects the Gospel of John would even care what was written in the Synoptic Gospels. Here's a [url="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=divinity+jesus+synoptic"]Google search (link)[/url]. There's plenty of info on the 'net about this topic. [/quote] Yes. That would mean two for and three against. Does the majority vote rule as in dogma decided by an ecumenical council? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Socrates' date='May 20 2005, 01:55 PM'] (1) There is plenty in the "synoptic" Gospels showing that Jesus is divine. We've been over this before. Examples include God's testimony at Christ's Baptism and the the Transfiguration, and Christ's reply when being interrogated by the Sanhedrin. The fact that you try to weasel around what these gospels clearly state does not discredit it's validity. (2) Throwing out John is a cop-out. John was an eyewitness and apostle of Christ (and the modernists have no solid evidence to deny what Christian tradition has always affirmed). And John is not gnostic. Gnosticism is a philosophy opposed to orthdox Christianity. John is not a gnostic gospel, but is universally accepted by the Church. The real reason you disregard John is that its declarations of Christ's divinity are too numerous and too blatant for even you to weasel around. (3) Some of these quotes are from the early second century, within living memory of Christ, and certainly reflect the teachings of the "Early Church." The evidence certainly contradicts your assertions that the Church did not teach the divinity of Christ until the 4th century or so. (4) Almost everything I could find on the Huleatt Manuscript dates it at ca. AD 50. Recent scientific evidence shows that it is much older than originally beleived. [http://biblefacts.org/history/oldtext.html#P64] As to the manuscript being "written before Matthew wrote the original," maybe this just shows that Matthew was written earlier than the Modernist "scholars" assert. What solid evidence do you have that Matthew was written at a later date? "Modernist" reasoning is circular. They claim without proof that everything that contains things they disbeleive in was written much later (therefore unreliable), and ignore any evidence which might contradict their "party line" which disbeleives in the divinity of Christ and the miraculous. Nothing more sad than a Modernist "True beleiver." [/quote] (1) You continue to to think of "Son of God" as a literal expression. It isn't. Look it up in the Old Testmant. (2) The gospel of John which we now have was very doubtfully written by John the Apostle. More likely by one of the many other Johns. Also, note that there are three authors. The bulk was written by one author, the last chapter by another. And John 8, the story of the woman taken in adultery, doesn't appear until the fourth century. "In the beginning was the Word (ie Logos)." This gnostic concept was created in the 8th century BC and was very popular in the first century. See Philo of Alexandria Jesus' contemporary, a popular Jewish gnostic philosopher writing for the Greeks, as was John. (3) The quotes from the second century were obviously not made by those living within "living memory" of Jesus. Unles they were over 100 years of age. (4) For a refutation of dating the Huelatt manuscript as of 50 AD, you might profitably search for "Date of P64 (Magdalen Papyrus of Matthew)" Its subtitled "a response to C.P. Thiede." Edited May 21, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scofizzle Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 how about some of these arguments... Luke 4 The temptaion of Jesus by the devil... When Jesus directly talking to the devil...says "so not put the Lord your God to the test." but your argument against that will be that he was not refering to himself (when he clearly is) but instead to God in heaven. "But He held His peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, and said to Him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven." - Mark 14:61-62 Also if you believe in Christ (sorry I havent read all of your replies) you may believe that the single greatest shread of evidence that Christ was devine was his resurrection. He was not ressurected....he did it of his own power. Now im pretty sure that neither you or I will be able to ressurect ourselves when we die..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Scofizzle' date='May 20 2005, 07:38 PM'] how about some of these arguments... Luke 4 The temptaion of Jesus by the devil... When Jesus directly talking to the devil...says "so not put the Lord your God to the test." but your argument against that will be that he was not refering to himself (when he clearly is) but instead to God in heaven. "But He held His peace, and answered nothing. Again the high priest asked Him, and said to Him: Art thou the Christ the Son of the blessed God? And Jesus said to him: I am. And you shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of the power of God, and coming with the clouds of heaven." - Mark 14:61-62 Also if you believe in Christ (sorry I havent read all of your replies) you may believe that the single greatest shread of evidence that Christ was devine was his resurrection. He was not ressurected....he did it of his own power. Now im pretty sure that neither you or I will be able to ressurect ourselves when we die..... [/quote] Hi Sco, Do you maintain that all of the saying reported in the New Testament were actually said by Jesus and recalled by the scripture writer 40 to 70 years after the fact? Who, outside of Jesus and Satan, was present and making notes at the event you describe.? And please note that Jewish kings were all "Sons of God." Please cite me the verses that say that Jesus rose under his own power. I think most, including Peter in Acts, say that Jesus was raised by God from the dead. Like Lazaarus. Edited May 21, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ardillacid Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 What about Jesus not refuting the blasphemy claim by the ones who had Him executed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mateo el Feo Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='May 20 2005, 08:11 PM']Yes. That would mean two for and three against. Does the majority vote rule as in dogma decided by an ecumenical council? [/quote] Who needs an ecumenical council? Use Googlewars.com: [url="http://www.googlewars.com/search.cfm?q1=%22Jesus+is+God%22&q2=%22Jesus+is+not+God%22"]Jesus is God vs. Jesus is not God[/url] Jesus is God = 96,000 (winner) Jesus is not God = 9700 [url="http://www.googlewars.com/search.cfm?q1=%22Jesus+is+divine%22&q2=%22Jesus+is+not+divine%22"]Jesus is divine vs. Jesus is not divine[/url] Jesus is divine = 3,690 (winner) Jesus is not divine = 644 Google has spoken. And so it must be... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 [quote name='ardillacid' date='May 20 2005, 11:37 PM'] What about Jesus not refuting the blasphemy claim by the ones who had Him executed? [/quote] The alleged blasphemy of Jesus did not involve his agreeing with the high priest that he was the Messiah and the Son of God. This is a common misconception which is explained by footnote in the New American Bible. But Jesus was silent. 34 Then the high priest said to him, "I order you to tell us under oath before the living God whether you are the Messiah, the Son of God." 64 Jesus said to him in reply, "You have said so. 35 But I tell you: From now on you will see 'the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power' and 'coming on the clouds of heaven.'" 65 Then the high priest tore his robes and said, "He has blasphemed! 36 What further need have we of witnesses? You have now heard the blasphemy; 66 36 [65] Blasphemed: the punishment for blasphemy was death by stoning (see Lev 24:10-16). According to the Mishnah, to be guilty of blasphemy one had to pronounce "the Name itself," i.e. Yahweh; cf Sanhedrin 7, 4.5. Those who judge the gospel accounts of Jesus' trial by the later Mishnah standards point out that Jesus uses the surrogate "the Power," and hence no Jewish court would have regarded him as guilty of blasphemy; others hold that the Mishnah's narrow understanding of blasphemy was a later development. LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleLes Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 (edited) [quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 21 2005, 12:17 AM'] Who needs an ecumenical council? Use Googlewars.com: [url="http://www.googlewars.com/search.cfm?q1=%22Jesus+is+God%22&q2=%22Jesus+is+not+God%22"]Jesus is God vs. Jesus is not God[/url] Jesus is God = 96,000 (winner) Jesus is not God = 9700 [url="http://www.googlewars.com/search.cfm?q1=%22Jesus+is+divine%22&q2=%22Jesus+is+not+divine%22"]Jesus is divine vs. Jesus is not divine[/url] Jesus is divine = 3,690 (winner) Jesus is not divine = 644 Google has spoken. And so it must be... [/quote] Indeed! Who needs an ecumenical council. Edited May 21, 2005 by LittleLes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fidei Defensor Posted May 21, 2005 Share Posted May 21, 2005 [quote name='LittleLes' date='May 20 2005, 11:12 PM'] And please note that Jewish kings were all "Sons of God." [/quote] Brother Littleles You know exactly what is meant by calling Jesus the Son of God, versus talking about the Jewish kings sons of God. You keep trying to make them indifferent to prove you point. There is a clear distinction between the Son of God and sons of God. Jesus was of the same substance of the Father, the Son on God in that way. The Jewish kings were sons of God because we all are sons of God, made in his likeness and image. Not of the same substance. Stop trying to blend the two together when they are not the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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