Yoda! Say it ain't so!

[Aloysius]

[b]Episode III[/b]

Yoda says
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"


[b]Episode VI[/b]

Yoda says
"Do or do not. There is no try"



has Yoda become an agent of the dark side in Episode VI?
or has George Lucas become an agent of the dark side in Episode III?

I pick the latter. poor Yoda, gettin relativist words placed in his mouth

[argent_paladin]

As with most relativistic statements, this one breaks down under the weight of its own incoherence.
Yoda, a jedi, is saying that only Sith deal in absolutes. But isn' t that statement also absolute? It divides the force into Sith and Jedi, and only one is bad (dealing in absolutes). If Yoda were truly not dealing with absolutes, then he would have to say "Sith deal more with absolutes than Jedi, but it really depends on the context and circumstances and, of course, that is just my limited perspective." The statement "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is itself an absolute statement, which would make Yoda a Sith. And Lucas a horrible writer.

[KizlarAgha]

Well Star Wars has never and will never have decent dialogue. It has always been eye candy, and there are more clever ways to get that now. Not that I'm not a fan...just simple truth. (Guess I'm a sith)

[Mogmog]

I posted on this in on the Music and Movies board but just to make sure: it was Obiwan that said this and not Yoda wasn't it?

[Zoecool13]

[quote name='Mogmog' date='May 19 2005, 02:10 AM'] I posted on this in on the Music and Movies board but just to make sure: it was Obiwan that said this and not Yoda wasn't it? [/quote]
Yes, Obiwan said this. Also, Yoda says "Try not. Do or Do not, there is no try" in Episode V, not VI. Now, is this an absolute... Yes, but not in the sense that Obiwan corrects Anakin. Anakin says "If you are not for me (or something to that regard) Then you are my enemy" where Obiwan replies with "Only the sith deal with absolutes"... Remember, the Force is all around and Yoda teaches Luke that only the mind makes something impossible... which is the lesson I believe Obiwan is speaking of. Nothing is impossible which means that Obiwan was saying just because he wasn't for Anakin doesn't make him his enemy...Remember Anakin's next line of "Don't lecture me now." For a Jedi, you only do or do not because if you try that means there is doubt. And doubt is a form of fear... Now remember, "Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering" (Episode I...EPIII States that Hate leads to the Dark Side.)

As for believing this to be a knock against Christianity as Mogmog posted on the Music and Movies board... It's a movie, relax and get in line to see Episode VII once it comes out. My friend and I were talking about it earlier as we watched EPI. When we learn that Anakin was conceived without a father, unexplainably. This should be more of a disturbance to you that someone born of a virgin turns into evil, but once again, remember it is just a movie.

May the Force be with you all, always

-Joe

[Myles Domini]

I dont know I still like Star Wars but I seem to remember someone else born of a Virgin in a little country on the edge of the East Mediterranean saying something a little like this:

[quote]Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters[/quote]

At least thats how Matthew tells the story.

Star Wars might be cool but its practically Manichaeism. I mean just look at theory of the Force its pure pantheism. One shouldnt expect George Lucas to produce anything other than Gnosticism given that his story is based entirely in a universe where everthing is bound together by 'the Force'.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='May 18 2005, 11:08 PM'] [. . .] The statement "Only a Sith deals in absolutes" is itself an absolute statement, which would make Yoda a Sith. And Lucas a horrible writer. [/quote]
Clearly, Lucas isn't a good writer.

[franciscanheart]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 18 2005, 11:12 PM'] [b]Episode VI[/b]

Yoda says
"Do or do not. There is no try" [/quote]
this was the basis for a sermon at world youth day.


*walks out singing "say it aint so. i will not go."

[Aloysius]

it's a subtle knock against bush by which Lucas kind of tainted his last movie. he screwed it up with this line because it contradicts the very nature of star wars.. absolute good vs. absolute evil: you have a choice of light or dark side but there is no in between, traveling in between is the path to the dark side.

all I'm upset about is that Lucas had to taint his movie like this. I thought Star Wars was better than that. ah well

anyway, "the force" was always allegorical and Star Wars was always a good message, even this one. but such lines taint it and kind of hurt the strenth of the story. it's modern mythology and I like it, but again that line was screwy.

I like Star Wars dialogue though, so there

[toledo_jesus]

does anybody else just watch Star Wars for the fights? heh heh. I like X-Wings. :deformed:

[Myles Domini]

[quote]it's a subtle knock against bush by which Lucas kind of tainted his last movie. he screwed it up with this line because it contradicts the very nature of star wars.. absolute good vs. absolute evil: you have a choice of light or dark side but there is no in between, traveling in between is the path to the dark side.[/quote]

I dont know. I seem to remember one Obi-Wan Kenobi saying to Luke Skywalker on Dagobah that he would learn much of the truth's Jedi cling to depend entirely on their point of view (in reference to what Obi-Wan told Luke about Vader when they first met). Obi-Wan's stance does not alter, he is always slightly relativistic, and I think its endemic of his lineage. We know his teacher, Qui Gon Jinn, was a maverick who disagreed with the Jedi Council and his teacher, Count Dooku, wasnt exactly faithful to the teachings of the Jedi either. I dont think Lucas errs in his presentation, he is faithful to the portrait of Obi-Wan Kenobi that he always gave the audience. A man, he is, 'with a certain point of view'.

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 18 2005, 11:12 PM'] [b]Episode III[/b]

Yoda says
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"


[/quote]
Yoda didnt say this Obi Wan did

[Scofizzle]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 19 2005, 12:34 PM'] it's a subtle knock against bush by which Lucas kind of tainted his last movie. he screwed it up with this line because it contradicts the very nature of star wars.. absolute good vs. absolute evil: you have a choice of light or dark side but there is no in between, traveling in between is the path to the dark side.

all I'm upset about is that Lucas had to taint his movie like this. I thought Star Wars was better than that. ah well

anyway, "the force" was always allegorical and Star Wars was always a good message, even this one. but such lines taint it and kind of hurt the strenth of the story. it's modern mythology and I like it, but again that line was screwy.

I like Star Wars dialogue though, so there [/quote]
there was nothing directed at Bush in the movie....Bush is not the first to say that line ..plus the story line was written 30 years ago...

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 19 2005, 01:12 AM'] [b]Episode III[/b]

Yoda says
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes"


[b]Episode VI[/b]

Yoda says
"Do or do not. There is no try"



has Yoda become an agent of the dark side in Episode VI?
or has George Lucas become an agent of the dark side in Episode III?

I pick the latter. poor Yoda, gettin relativist words placed in his mouth [/quote]
Two different situations.

God Bless!
ironmonk

[Aloysius]

perhaps y'all are right. however, while the movie may have been written 30 years ago, that line was not written until recently. it was written in a general outline before, he filled in specific lines and such more recently and I do believe Lucas did sort of intend something about bush there. but no big, I'm not concerned. I kind of think it taints the movie in that we should deal in absolutes, and the Jedi are all about dealing in absolutes with no compromise to the dark side because compromise with the dark side leads down the path to the dark side. if a Jedi had said to a sith "if you are not with us, you are with the dark side" it would have been in line with what the Jedi stood for.

I'm not gonna let it ruin my star wars experience, but I still think the line is out of place and a subtle political jab from Lucas. that line in the movie was not written thirty years ago, it was written today; and I doubt Lucas didn't think about Bush when he was putting that "If you are not with me" thing in there.