Semalsia Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 Yes, yes, I know that you don't know, but nevertheless. I once heard some catholic (priest I assumed) on radio answer to a little girl that she would meet her beloved doggy in the Heaven, since God would know that would make her happy. Now, I started thinking, if all you really want is to have someone you love (your child, spouse or whatever) with you in Heaven, then would that person be there? I mean, what kind of Heaven would it be, if you would be miserable there? Well, of course you are going to meet everyone that is in Heaven, but what if the person you want to meet is in Hell? This is a problem, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 If you want to read in depth on it I suggest "The Lamb's Supper" as a good start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 18, 2005 Share Posted May 18, 2005 [quote]Now, I started thinking, if all you really want is to have someone you love (your child, spouse or whatever) with you in Heaven, then would that person be there? I mean, what kind of Heaven would it be, if you would be miserable there? Well, of course you are going to meet everyone that is in Heaven, but what if the person you want to meet is in Hell? [/quote] We won't have an awareness of anything 'missing' though will we? Isn't heaven about being 'in the fullness of God'? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 those who go to hell will be set eternally as evil spirits... you don't want to be with an evil spirit even if they were your friend or relative when they still had a chance to be good. btw, in regards to the dog answer... that was somewhat a touchy feely type thing not necessarily too theological... but here's what I can tell you: animals have mortal, not immortal, souls. they are here for our sake. the love of a human being can however elevate them by his memory of them and as such the animal can live forever for your sake. but animals don't have immortal souls because they are not made in the image and likeness of God and so will only live insomuch as they are elevated in the love of man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Semalsia Posted May 19, 2005 Author Share Posted May 19, 2005 [quote name='Ellenita']We won't have an awareness of anything 'missing' though will we?[/quote] What does that exactly mean? Are you saying we won't be fully aware? Are you saying we won't remember everything? Are you saying we will be drugged? I'm having hard time seeing constant happiness being anything else but these. [quote name='Aloysius']those who go to hell will be set eternally as evil spirits... you don't want to be with an evil spirit even if they were your friend or relative when they still had a chance to be good. [/quote] So people will not be themselfs in the afterlife? Does this mean that in Heaven you don't have chance to do anything bad? Doesn't that limit free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sxtncndles Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 I think that in Heaven, you won't be tempted to do evil, because you'll be with God. The 'free will' on Earth is yeilding to temptation or not, and we won't get that in Heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Perhasp reading the second of of the Summa would greatly aid this discussion. Read the articles that deal with happiness and what it will be like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myles Domini Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 [quote]Yes, yes, I know that you don't know, but nevertheless. I once heard some catholic (priest I assumed) on radio answer to a little girl that she would meet her beloved doggy in the Heaven, since God would know that would make her happy. Now, I started thinking, if all you really want is to have someone you love (your child, spouse or whatever) with you in Heaven, then would that person be there? I mean, what kind of Heaven would it be, if you would be miserable there? Well, of course you are going to meet everyone that is in Heaven, but what if the person you want to meet is in Hell? This is a problem, no? [/quote] God is infinite and in Heaven you will be able to experience Him? Is it logically possible to want more than what God actually is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 true freedom is the power to do what is right. it is not our modern conception of freedom, i.e. we can do good or bad; because when we do bad we enslave ourselves to evil. you will be yourself in heaven. you will be the perfected you, as you were created to be. you will not sin or do any evil or wrong; but you will still be yourself. if you consider evil a big part of yourself... perhaps you should re-examine where your after life will really be spent. while you may now be imperfect and a doer of some evil things because of this imperfection, your nature is not evil. once you enter eternity; there is NO CHANGING. The state of your soul is as it was when you entered eternity, because for change you need the movement of time; and in eternity you escape all movement of time and simply live forever. anyway, so you are eternally good, the person in hell is eternally evil. you don't want to meet him anymore, because he is an evil person. he is no longer your friend or relative, he is a slave of evil for all eternity and you want no part of him. since at this point he is entered into eternity and cannot change, you will not even want to befriend him in the hopes of him changing, because you know for a fact that he cannot change. if your child or spouse or whatever became eternally evil with no chance of changing, there is nothing left for you to do but let go and joyfully look forward to your eternity. and so you shall, for God will purify every imperfect attachment to things that are worldly that can no longer satisfy. that person whom you were attached to on earth IS NO MORE. that person does not exist, there is an evil spirit who was that person, but he will never again have the chance to change for good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 [quote]What does that exactly mean? Are you saying we won't be fully aware? Are you saying we won't remember everything? Are you saying we will be drugged?[/quote] No not at all, I wasn't saying that.... Complete and total happiness must be in being in the fullness of God....that's what our souls long for and I don't know that it's ever attainable here on earth because we often judge our happiness in 'worldly' terms...."if only I looked this way/had this thing/was in a relationship, I'd be completely happy".....but in heaven there is the fullness of God isn't there, so everything else that distracts us or trys to imitate that on earth won't exist for us. Does this make sense I don't think I'm explaining it very well..... [quote]once you enter eternity; there is NO CHANGING. The state of your soul is as it was when you entered eternity[/quote] Al, this is a new concept for me...I thought (or maybe I can't imagine a time when this wouldn't be the case! ) we would always be on the road to knowing God more and developing our relationship with Him, even in heaven, and that involves change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 (edited) As far is there being no change, St. Thomas described the beatific vision as a resting. That is an action, although a resting one. Edited May 19, 2005 by Paphnutius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellenita Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 So the notion of what we understand change to be is very different in heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloysius Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 your soul is in eternity, it no longer changes. it is perfected before you get there. it is the reason that no one in heaven can ever be sent to hell and that no one in hell can ever be sent to heaven... you have become who you will be for all eternity. I didn't say there wouldn't be action; simply that you yourself would never change. once you live in eternity, you are no longer bound by the constraints of time. only the structure of time changes people, because change necessitates at this point in time you are this and at the next point in time you are that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
son_of_angels Posted May 19, 2005 Share Posted May 19, 2005 Aware. Hmm... an interesting word. I would say we are completely aware, in all the sense that complete unity and fellowship with the Cosmic Lord implies, aware of everything, including our completeness in Christ, etc. However, being aware is not the same as what we experience it on earth. We will not have eyes, so how will we see. We will not have ears, so how will we hear, etc. Instead this awareness moves beyond substance and experience. Nor, it seems to me, would awareness have the sensual nature that it does on earth. For example, awareness in life often leads to jealousy or other forms of desire and despair. Sure we may be aware that the dog or what not is not with us, but being freed from all despair that awareness will somehow lead us to joy. After all, everything, even the most mortal of creatures, fulfills a purpose that is representative of some aspect of God in our lives. Each part, when used and allowed to fulfill its highest function, exists as a participator in Divine Happiness. In that sense, perhaps our accomplishment of that state will be even more in union with the essence of a creature, like a pet, than would simply living and being with them. Who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paphnutius Posted May 20, 2005 Share Posted May 20, 2005 [quote name='son_of_angels' date='May 19 2005, 06:53 PM'] However, being aware is not the same as what we experience it on earth. We will not have eyes, so how will we see. We will not have ears, so how will we hear, etc. Instead this awareness moves beyond substance and experience. [/quote] We will have ressurected bodies will we not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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