How do you know

[Ash Wednesday]

The internet can be fine to meet people to date in person in the right circumstances (for example through Catholic groups), but as for virtual "love" and dating itself, it cannot substitute the real life thing. You might feel potentially "interested" in a person, or even develop a "crush" on someone you met online -- but it has to be taken to face-to-face interaction to find out if you're really compatible, and for it to really progress into genuine courtship and love.

Extensive and intense emotional investment with someone you have never met in person is a very risky and unhealthy thing.

[argent_paladin]

1. I agree with Ash and Colleen. Feelings can be deceptive. This discussion is very similar to protestant ones about "knowing that your are saved". You just know. And if you sin again and do bad things and leave... well, you must have misinterpreted the feeling. Same with love. If the criteria is that you "just know" or you "have a feeling", then can you ever be wrong? It seems that you can because how many relationships end? Don't you think that most of the people who get married "know" that they are in love? But half of them end in divorce. Add to that the millions who know they are in love but then they realize they were wrong.
For Catholics, love is not a feeling but a choice and a commandment. We know if it is love if it makes sense. If your family and her family are happy about you two being together. If you have dated for a year and feel that he/she is trustworthy and responsible. If you think that he/she will support your faith, raise your children in holiness, etc. I think you should be very wary of "love at first sight".

2. That is why I think internet dating is not so bad. And I do think it is ironic that geetarplayer is badmouthing the very medium that he is using and the very same medium that allows the community of phatmassers to come together. I think that the world is a better place because of phatmass and it would never have been possible without the internet.
I think internet dating can be good because it focuses the people on the important things, like faith life, character, etc and less on looks, etc. Psychologists divide love into to parts, passionate and coompassionate. Passionate love is intense but only lasts from 1-6 months. This is the "in love" feeling that most songs are written about and that many crave. Internet dating allows one to avoid the pitfall of that, to take the relationship more slowly than one would in real life. I think that is one of the problems of modern dating. We want things to be efficient, to be fast and convenient. Relationships develop to quickly and flame out. Internet dating forces a more rational, slower pace. And it allows for a much wider group to interact. For example, one of the most important things to have in common is agreement on the Church's teaching on contraception. It is impossible to know a person's position just by looking at them. And only a small percentage agree. And it is a fairly personal issue. You wouldn't just walk up to people and ask them as a first question. But that means that you would invest much time before knowing if they are part of the 1% that is faithful to church teaching. The internet allows you to connect with literally hundreds of faithful single Catholics the same age as you. In the contemporary world, where single faithful Catholics are few and far between, that is a gift from God.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='argent_paladin' date='May 19 2005, 01:30 AM'] 2. That is why I think internet dating is not so bad. And I do think it is ironic that geetarplayer is badmouthing the very medium that he is using and the very same medium that allows the community of phatmassers to come together. I think that the world is a better place because of phatmass and it would never have been possible without the internet.
I think internet dating can be good because it focuses the people on the important things, like faith life, character, etc and less on looks, etc. Psychologists divide love into to parts, passionate and coompassionate. Passionate love is intense but only lasts from 1-6 months. This is the "in love" feeling that most songs are written about and that many crave. Internet dating allows one to avoid the pitfall of that, to take the relationship more slowly than one would in real life. I think that is one of the problems of modern dating. We want things to be efficient, to be fast and convenient. Relationships develop to quickly and flame out. Internet dating forces a more rational, slower pace. And it allows for a much wider group to interact. For example, one of the most important things to have in common is agreement on the Church's teaching on contraception. It is impossible to know a person's position just by looking at them. And only a small percentage agree. And it is a fairly personal issue. You wouldn't just walk up to people and ask them as a first question. But that means that you would invest much time before knowing if they are part of the 1% that is faithful to church teaching. The internet allows you to connect with literally hundreds of faithful single  Catholics the same age as you. In the contemporary world, where single faithful Catholics are few and far between, that is a gift from God. [/quote]


There are people on this website who fell in love over the internet and got married and are happily married.

First and foremost, love is a commitment, not a feeling. The notion that body language has that much to do with it is silly. As Argent_Paladin pointed out, that would be a part of the "passionate love." Love begins in friendships and builds through difficulties. Compassion means "with suffering." Passionate love in itself ends with suffering, compassionate love lasts and grows through it.

Additionally, Stephen Wood, author of [u]ABC's of Choosing a Good Wife[/u] and [u]ABC's of Choosing a Good Husband[/u], calls internet dating a new great form of meeting potential spouses. He compares it to the "letter dating" that went on between soldiers and women back home in the world wars, which had great success.

Furthermore, such sites as Ave Maria Singles have even been on programs such as Life on the Rock. That company, in fact, is publishing a book of something like 100 success stories from their website.

Then you take into account the prayer factor. I don't know about you, but I try to do what God tells me, and if He tells me to trust Him, I'm gonna try my darndest.

Ultimately, yes, there are issues which make it risky. However, the ability to deceive being the greatest of these, honesty is vital, as in any relationship. I don't think it's really much easier to hide the truth online than in real life. You can still spot a lie pretty well.

Also, I have friends who have met me, who knew me first online, and I have friends who see/have seen me on an almost daily basis who are also on this website (Iggy, Paphnutius, PaxVobis) and I am reassured that I am pretty much the same both ways.

One more thing, auditory and visual chat systems are available, too. The laugh may be a big attraction to some...that's not hard to get around.

I will fight to the death anyone who says that it's impossible or bad to be in love over the internet.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='philothea' date='May 18 2005, 10:23 PM'] Well, I can only speak for myself, but --

My girlish ideal was a man with a certain name, appearance, and occupation. I found him.

Having convinced him to hang out with me, a number of unusual events conspired to keep us stuck together. We went to the mall. The car died. We got a ride back, brought another car. It died. While we were trying to get cars fixed, a storm took out all the power, all the phones, and flooded the streets.

It's quite a bonding experince, being trapped in a dark, flooded mall parking lot all night, then trying to walk (wade) 10 miles home the next day.

I fear to think what might have happend if we'd tried to break up!

I suppose this isn't really helpful, but at times natural disasters can be a clue. [/quote]
How romantic!

[Nicole8223]

It's funny...when you're not in love, you wonder what it will feel like...

It is an amazing feeling, but so much more. Sometimes, it might not feel good though. Actually, sometimes it feels done right horrible! But I think there is something more concrete than feelings, cause they change with the wind.

Its doing. I know I found myself doing little things for my love. Helping him clean and cook, and giving him wake up calls. It's not about cuddling all the time or holding hands or staring into each others eyes (but I do love those things!), but it is about real love...

and what is love...GOD.

If you are really in love with someone...you see Christ in them so much. You want only virtue to grow in them, and you will pray and do whatever you can to help them grow in holiness.

The greatest blessing is when they love you, too, and then you both just desire for one another to be saints. It's amazing to hear someone say "I just want you to be a saint."

Falling in Love is amazing!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Nicole8223' date='May 19 2005, 11:47 AM'] It's funny...when you're not in love, you wonder what it will feel like...

It is an amazing feeling, but so much more. Sometimes, it might not feel good though. Actually, sometimes it feels done right horrible! But I think there is something more concrete than feelings, cause they change with the wind.

Its doing. I know I found myself doing little things for my love. Helping him clean and cook, and giving him wake up calls. It's not about cuddling all the time or holding hands or staring into each others eyes (but I do love those things!), but it is about real love...

and what is love...GOD.

If you are really in love with someone...you see Christ in them so much. You want only virtue to grow in them, and you will pray and do whatever you can to help them grow in holiness.

The greatest blessing is when they love you, too, and then you both just desire for one another to be saints. It's amazing to hear someone say "I just want you to be a saint."

Falling in Love is amazing! [/quote]
You hit the nail on the head.

There are so many people who think that it's about being "in love" in a passive sense. Like love is something that happens to you. It's not...it's something you do.

As for doing little things...yes...and some of those little things are the biggest signs of real love.

[Birgitta Noel]

Geetarplayer, you may want to rethink your position, I also know many who have met online, have fallen in love, and married.

LOL, and in the interest of full disclosure, I am one of them.

Let's separate a few things. 1) there are many who meet totally random people online, ie in generic chat areas. This is pretty risky and has a pretty low success rate. Then there 2) there are those who meet on sites that are either dating sites, many are Catholic dating sites, or via sites which promote common interests, ie Phatmass. These tend to have a pretty high success rate.

I cannot speak for others, but I can share my experience. I met my husband, Darin on catholicsingles.com. I was at Michigan State, but studying in London at the time, and he was in Illinois at Bradley U. having just moved out of a religious community with whom he was discerning.

Because I am overweight I always hated meeting people in person and generally was rejected by those I met because I wasn't their ideal, meeting Darin online allowed him to get to know me without judging the physical. Later he did admit that I was a bit heavier than he would have liked, but that he loved all of me But I'm getting ahead of myself....

So, I was in London, and reached a point where the semester closed in on me and told him that he'd have to wait a few weeks til I got back stateside. We were just friends, and in fact I didn't really have much interest, but a few weeks later, there he was again.

We started exchanging emails, and eventually IMs. I began eagerly awaiting his emails that were there for me each morning when I awoke (he was going to early mass and would send them, I was a grad student trying to grab every last second of sleep that I could). We got to know one another more deeply, and I enjoyed our conversations very much. He made me laugh, not just in the LOL sense of cyberspace, but in a real sense. He made my heart and soul smile.

We were falling in love, but neither of us wanted to admit it before we met in person. Being in a high pressure grad program I had no time to date, and had we met in person I wouldn't have given Darin the time of day.

Around September he asked if he could come visit. By the grace of God it was probably my only free weekend of my entire grad career at MSU. We talked on the phone for the first time the night before he came, and exchanged photos, again, I think for the first time. And I did some detective work to see if he was really who he said he was, just to be on the safe side.

When we met in person we were nervous, but that soon subsided. Soon we were talking and acting as if we had known one another for years. He brought the very flowers my Mom had loved when she was dating my Dad. Then he told me that I wrinkled my nose like a bunny rabbit, which was what my paternal Grandfather, whom I had never met, had told my Mom when he nicknamed her "Rabbit"! I knew that this one was special...

That very weekend I met him I told my Mom that this was the man which I was going to marry. And yes, he also made me laugh in person, a lot. In fact, to this day that is one of the things which I love the most, he makes me laugh. One day when we're broke, have no health, no home, nothing, we'll have one another and that laughter and love.

Anyhow, we dated long distance for a year and a half. It wasn't easy, he was a 7 hour drive away and when he did visit we did a lot of sitting in coffee shops while I graded papers. But we persisted and through the grace of God survived those tough times. He proposed just after I graduated and six months later I moved to IL (there's a looooong story there too, but I'll spare you the details for now).

Internet dating is not for everyone, but it can work. You can learn a lot about someone before you even really meet them, ie if you meet them on a Catholic dating site you'll know how they feel about the big issues. Darin knew that I wasn't fully in line with Church teaching when we met, but he persisted out of love and I changed my mind, had a conversion of heart. If you asked him, he'd probably tell you that now I am the one trying to convert him so to speak.

As for internet communication, people have communicated via love letters for centuries, this is just a different form of that. We learned to speak with our minds and souls and not our bodies (though we did struggle with chasitity issues when we were together).

Ummm, I'm sure there are a billion things I am leaving out, but that's ok. Feel free to ask any questions.....

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 18 2005, 03:53 PM'] I don't know....I have never been in love....well, with a person.

I think that I am in love with the Church, but that is a whoooooooooollllllllllllllleeeeeeeeee different thing.

But it isn't the same kind of love.

Cam [/quote]
Not really

[Birgitta Noel]

Now, as for how do you know? I'll second all that's been said just above.

It's different for everyone, but it has a lot to do with choosing. I chose to love my husband, and I choose to love him everyday, the good days, the bad days, and all the days in between.

It's about loving someone so deeply that you want to give all of yourself to them, mentally, physically, and spiritually. On a practical level, it's knowing that if you were to die leaving children behind that you would trust that person to raise those children and guide them to heaven.

I made a conscious choice. When Fr. was hesitating to marry us because I was having all sorts of doubts he told me I had to answer two questions before he'd agree to the marriage. 1) Do you love him? and 2) Do you love him just the way he is, right now? No one had broken it down for me that simply before. My answer was an immediate and resounding, "YES!" It was so clear. And I remember telling a friend, if things ever go wrong, I won't be able to get an annullment based on lack of knowledge. I was making a free, full, conscious choice to marry this man. And I am so glad I did!

I always thought I would be nervous the morning of my wedding. When that morning came I was so calm that my friends thought I was on something. Seriously. I got to the church, saw my boquet, declared that I hated it, it was everything I hadn't wanted, and then moved on. People thought I was truly nuts!

As we were walking down the aisle, my Dad (may he rest in peace) turned to me and said, "You're sure you want to do this? Because if you don't we turn right around, jump in that limo and hit the bar for a drink." He was joking, but he was serious at the same time. I knew that if I said, that I couldn't do it that after all the planning, all the $$, etc., that he would have supported me. I said, "Not a chance, let's go!" and grabbed his arm a little more tightly and walked toward my beloved....

June 8th we'll have been married for three years. Time flies!

[Birgitta Noel]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 18 2005, 03:53 PM'] I don't know....I have never been in love....well, with a person.

I think that I am in love with the Church, but that is a whoooooooooollllllllllllllleeeeeeeeee different thing.

But it isn't the same kind of love.

Cam [/quote]
Cam, being in love with a person should be the same kind of love. We are called to love our spouses as Christ loved the Church. To lay our lives down for them and to guide them to heaven!

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='May 19 2005, 12:24 PM'] Cam, being in love with a person should be the same kind of love. We are called to love our spouses as Christ loved the Church. To lay our lives down for them and to guide them to heaven! [/quote]
I'm guessing that Cam was making the distinction between Eros and Agape love.

[Birgitta Noel]

LOL, good call Micah! I'll bet you're right. Do you think you could elaborate a bit on the difference between the two, or at least their basic defs?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='May 19 2005, 12:53 PM'] LOL, good call Micah! I'll bet you're right. Do you think you could elaborate a bit on the difference between the two, or at least their basic defs? [/quote]
There are four, actually.

Storge-this is the "I love pizza" type of love. It isn't lasting and it isn't commital...it's more of a "like with fondness."

Delphia-this is brotherly love. It's what allows us to live in societal structure, to have manners and social mores, and to will good for others, based on empathy.

Eros-this is erotic or marital love. It desires to be completely self-giving and seeks the good of another. It is highly committal, even through difficulty.

Agape-this is Christian love. It is the love which led Christ to die for us, and for us to love God. It is the highest form of love and it comes especially through the Eucharist, i.e. the Agape Meal.

[Birgitta Noel]

BTTT

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Birgitta Noel' date='May 19 2005, 06:20 PM'] BTTT [/quote]