OSAS vs. Confession

[Brother Adam]

Good, that helps me understand where you are coming better. Let me think on how to respond unless someone beats me to it tonight. God Bless your day.

[mulls]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 23 2005, 08:41 AM'] Good, that helps me understand where you are coming better. Let me think on how to respond unless someone beats me to it tonight. God Bless your day. [/quote]
i look foward to it. and i need that blessing because i got two wisdom teeth pulled this morning.

[Brother Adam]

Okay, three things I have been thinking about. Are they straight from scripture, no, but I believe they deserve attention.

The first problem I see with OSAS, is that it creates a determined soul. We first agree that a person can still turn from their sinful ways and have faith in Christ until they die, at which time their eternal destiny is determined. Before death though, we are still working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil 2:12). By saying we are OSAS, we lose free will and become determined. No where does the Bible imply that after we make a proclamation of faith do we lose free will, including serious sin, which Paul in 1 John 3 states that we cannot be reconciled for that simply by prayer. So we know that this mortal sin can't simply be "sin that causes physical death".

The second problem is that there is no true assurance of salvation in experience. Experience tells us that no person can truly know if they are saved because those who have lead good and decent Christian lives, who have given good testimony of their "Faith Alone in Christ Alone" conversion, later in life abandon the faith or find "they didn't really do it right" because they fell into serious sin. So no one can truly know that they don't fall in this catagory.

On the flip side a Catholic has the assurance of eternal life. We can know at any time if we have mortally sinned and need to return as the prodigal son did, or if we are going to inherit eternal life if we died at that time. I know right now with absolute certianity that if I die right now I will inherit eternal life. OSAS just doesn't afford such an assurance because there is no way to know for sure. Saying that a person has 'good works' just doesn't cut it because we cannot, in Christian philosophy, make man so he is not free. As the old illustration goes, God doesn't want robots worshipping Him, so if man, even after adopted sonship, chooses to reject God, God honors that request. Jesus has not lost one of his own, but one of his own has chosen to deny Him.

God Bless.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='mulls' date='May 23 2005, 06:16 PM'] i look foward to it. and i need that blessing because i got two wisdom teeth pulled this morning. [/quote]
Hey, I just read this, I was typing for a long time. I'm sorry you had to have those pulled. My best friend got them pulled a couple of years ago and looked like a chipmunk. He didn't think it was funny. I thought it was halarious. Then he punched me in the arm. lol

[mulls]

i don't think a "determined soul" as you put it negates free will. we make a choice to accept our salvation, and we believe in God's promises once we make that choice. Paul obviously says alot of predestination, calling, election, etc.

i posted the following in the Romans 8:30 thread, i think it's relevant here, even as a reply to the rest of your post...



[quote]11For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Cor 3:11-14[/quote]


people can be disobedient, and not do what they're supposed to do....like works which will not bear fruit and instead be burned up, and still be saved.



For the record, I don't think you'll find any sort of serious Christian anywhere who would advocate just "being saved," and then not acting on/in God's will. Those who say "I prayed a prayer to accept Jesus so I'm fine" should examine themselves, that they're calling an election is made sure, and that they're not deceiving themselves into thinking they are in a proper relationship with the Lord.

Proponents of eternal security do not promote a lifestyle of arrogance or laziness or disobedience. They simply give glory to God for the fact that nothing and nobody can take away what Christ has done for us.

People do backslide and fall away for a time, but God can and will restore them (Prodigal son). That's when we need to go to Christ to forgive us and " cleanse us from all unrightouesness," for he is able (1 John 1:9).

Of those who turn their back on the faith and fall into apostasy, it is believed that they were never apart of the faith to begin with, and were deceived just as they deceived others.

[Briguy]

Acts 13
[46] Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
[47] For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
[48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[49] And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

1 John 5
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Adam, I asked you to explain the scriptures from Acts above on the Romans thread but you did not. I also used the verses from 1 John to make a clear logic argument but again no real response to it. At least not another way to look at the verses in question. From 1 John we see that we can KNOW we have eternal life. Once we know it it has to be eternal or eternal does not mean forever, which it does. So, These words were written to those who were alive and had faith in Christ, not those who were dying or just died. We see that we CAN KNOW or John is all messed up. No, he said we can know and he said what we could know is that we have eternal life. Since eternal is forever we CAN KNOW we are saved forever.

I will give you a chance to respond again on this thread. Oh, in the first set of verses I am showing that God ordained who would believe. There is something to "election" and it can't be swept under the rug because of free will. We must find a unity in both ideas. Anyway, explain another interpretation of the verses, besides the obvious.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 24 2005, 11:40 AM']I also used the verses from 1 John to make a clear logic argument but again no real response to it. At least not another way to look at the verses in question. From 1 John we see that we can KNOW we have eternal life. Once we know it it has to be eternal or eternal does not mean forever, which it does. So, These words were written to those who were alive and had faith in Christ, not those who were dying or just died. We see that we CAN KNOW or John is all messed up. No, he said we can know and he said what we could know is that we have eternal life. Since eternal is forever we CAN KNOW we are saved forever.[/quote]
I find that some Protestants are comfortable in presuming that their own Salvation is guaranteed.

Mulls provided a quote to temper this belief:
[quote name='mulls']but of false Christian teachers/believers, 1 John 2:19 says "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

so i would hold that those who fall into apostasy were "not of us" to begin with, and were deceived themselves into thinking they were really believers.[/quote]

It's very easy to believe that others can deceive themselves. Such cases are mentioned throughout the New Testament. For example:
[quote name='Matthew 7:21-23']Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.  Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?' Then I will declare to them solemnly, 'I never knew you.  Depart from me, you evildoers.'[/quote]

But, it's dangerous to think that only [i]other people[/i] are subject to being deceived. When I read the above passage in the Gospel of St. Matthew, I don't read it as a warning that other people could be deceived. I read it as a warning to me: I could be deceived! I would support my position by citing an earlier verse:
[quote name='Matthew 7:2']For as you judge, so will you be judged, and the measure with which you measure will be measured out to you.[/quote]
In other words: if I can judge that others could be deceived, I should expect that I would be subject to the same deception.

If one takes an extreme view of "Assurance of Salvation" (based on the cited 1 John 5 verses), how can that be reconciled with the many verses in which Our Lord condemns those who believe themselves to be assured of their own salvation?

[mulls]

We should be just as cautious in examining our own selves to make sure we are not deceived. i have been doing this lately, because of this recent discussion as well as some conviction from scripture and experiences i've had on campus this past year with people "accepting Christ," then not doing a thing about it.

I clearly remember the day, nearly 3 years ago, when I came to know the Lord. It was an altar call atmosphere....I heard the gospel preached as a church for the 2nd week in a row, and the pastor invited people to accept the Lord.

I understood the message, understood my condition of sin, how my soul was headed to hell, and my unworthiness. And by God's grace, I understood that Christ came to bear my sin, and by repenting and believing I could be saved. So I gave it up right there in my seat, and I know that my conversion was sincere, the foundation of Christ was laid in my life (not a foundation of religiosity, or being pressured into doing something, or wanting to be accepted by people) and I've been building on that foundation through God's grace.

I witnessed many more people that summer apparently "get saved" at similar altar calls, but then I would never see them in church again. We must beware of false conversions. We must be sure to count the cost before we make a decision to have faith in Christ. We can't force people into praying a prayer, then deciding to tell them how hard it is to follow the Lord. People must understand how truly narrow that gate is. By grace, I understood it on that day, and the Lord saved me. He had been preparing me, burdening and convicting me of my sin, making me aware that I was totally lost, then He rescued me.

That is my tale. I know that I am not deceived. I don't presume to know everything or to say that I will never fall into errant doctrine, but yet I have faith in the scriptures that by "testing everything" and by the Holy Spirit's guidance I will live a pleasing and acceptable life in the name of Christ.

How do I know I am in Christ? 1 John 2:3-- "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments."

I do my best to walk with the Lord. When I screw up, I confess. This is really the only way we can know that we know God, or know that other people know God. But even that is hard because many people do all sorts of good works in Christ's name, but many will say "Lord, Lord...." and we know how the rest goes.

We can't see people's foundation, only the exterior of the house. Our foundation must be Christ, and if it is, we will continue in Him. We must exhort others in the same way.

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 24 2005, 11:40 AM'] Acts 13
[46] Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
[47] For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
[48] And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
[49] And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

1 John 5
[10] He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
[11] And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
[12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
[13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Adam, I asked you to explain the scriptures from Acts above on the Romans thread but you did not. I also used the verses from 1 John to make a clear logic argument but again no real response to it. At least not another way to look at the verses in question. From 1 John we see that we can KNOW we have eternal life. Once we know it it has to be eternal or eternal does not mean forever, which it does. So, These words were written to those who were alive and had faith in Christ, not those who were dying or just died. We see that we CAN KNOW or John is all messed up. No, he said we can know and he said what we could know is that we have eternal life. Since eternal is forever we CAN KNOW we are saved forever.

I will give you a chance to respond again on this thread.  Oh, in the first set of verses I am showing that God ordained who would believe. There is something to "election" and it can't be swept under the rug because of free will. We must find a unity in both ideas. Anyway, explain another interpretation of the verses, besides the obvious.

In Love and Truth,
Brian [/quote]
We already know that only 'he who endures to the end will be saved' (Matt 24:13) and "we are not saved by faith alone" (James 2:24) and that the only thing that counts is "faith working in love" (Gal 5:6). You are right that our election does not trump free will, it is what I have been poorly attempting to get at all along. Even after adopted sonship (initial salvation), we still have free will to commit all sorts of grevious sin, even falling away (apostasy). St. Paul tells us though that we who are capable of such grevious sin should not sin just because grace may abound. So clearly we are capable even after believing of rejecting Christ.

The measure of this predestination is not "did you accept Christ as your savior" it is those who "endure to the end". This is why works are necessary for final salvation (Matt 10:22; Mk 8:35). God yes, already knows who will endure until the end, however we as Christians must continue to work out our salvation. We know that each man will be repaid according to his works (Romans 2:5-8).

To your "eternal life" note, just as Jesus said "I will be with you [b]until[/b] the end of the age" we know that Jesus is not abandoning us, ever. So a proper understanding of salvation is in order, and why the prodigal son story is important. Yes, we are Christians, yes, we can foresake our inheritance. We are adopted children of God, but we are not yet living our inheritance now. When we die we wil live in heaven at the wedding feast of the lamb forever. Our life though is not "forever". We have a beginning though we will have no end. We live as the created and not as the creator. We can know for absolute sure that we have eternal life and will be in heaven at death, but we are also capable of falling away as Jesus and Paul state over and over again.

Mulls feels that he is absolutely sure he is saved. I don't doubt it. Mulls is also absolutely sure that he will never fall into that sin which causes death (1 John 5), the sin which Paul states that not even prayer does good (for which we need reconciliation). For sin that is not mortal, we know that "if we ask anything according to His will he hears us" but "there is a sin which is mortal; I do not say one is to pray for that" (1 John 5:14,16). This I don't know that he can be so sure of.

Edited May 24, 2005 by Brother Adam

[Brother Adam]

Oh, I apologize also if you feel I ever ignore yours or anyones questions. I am now in intensive summer classes so with the time I have I try to answer the questions I feel I can be the most help on and try to leave other questions to those that know the area the best first. Such is the nature of internet questions. As soon as Intensive Biblical Greek (4 semesters in 9 weeks) begins I likely will hardly be on at all.

[Briguy]

Adam, I know you are busy but you really did not answer the questions. Your answer was generic at best and did not sound like it came from your heart. My "eternal" argument poses a real problem to your way of thinking. Again, eternal has to be forever, it just has to. If the person John was writing to can KNOW they have eternal life they can KNOW they are saved forever, Once they know it is forever it can't end, no matter who wants it to end. That is a real argument from scripture and if you can't look at the verses and offer an alternate interpretation then your loss of salvation theology is in trouble. Give me something solid to chew on Adam, so I know that you have addressed the verses in question and not just restated your theology.

Mulls, this is just a thought and not what I am saying I believe because I am still pondering and praying about my real feeling about what election means. Anyway, could it be that those who go forward at an alter call but have no life change simply are just not ordained by God to believe. The verses from Acts I used say that those who were ordained, believed. Perhaps that is what happens. For me and you, we changed when we placed our faith in Christ, because WE WERE ordained to believe. Think about that in terms of what our good Catholic brothers/sisters have said about enduring to the end. It is a sound theology and worth exploring further. Brother Mulls, keep searching and growing!!!

In Christian Love,
Brian

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 25 2005, 08:43 AM']That is a real argument from scripture and if you can't look at the verses and offer an alternate interpretation then your loss of salvation theology is in trouble.[/quote]
This was directed to Adam; but I'll respond.

Catholic teaching on Salvation can be summarized by the following (quoting [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]Catholic.com--link[/url]):
[quote]Scripture teaches that one’s final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death. As Jesus himself tells us, "He who endures to the end will be saved" (Matt. 24:13; cf. 25:31–46). One who dies in the state of friendship with God (the state of grace) will go to heaven. The one who dies in a state of enmity and rebellion against God (the state of mortal sin) will go to hell.[/quote]
Can we "know" we are saved? Mulls has already cited an example of someone who thought they were saved, but were not. I quoted Our Lord in the Gospel of Saint Matthew--more examples. Mulls seems to indicate that others can be mistaken, but he himself cannot.

Mulls is on the right path when he examines his conscience for offenses/sins he has commited. Though, I wonder what the merit in such a practice would be if his salvation did not depend on sins commited after "accepting Jesus." The practice of an interior reflection of our faults is appropriate and fruitful in the context of the Christian sacrament of Confession, through which God's forgiveness flows and cleanses us of our sins and returns us to a state of grace (i.e. friendship with God).

[b]Loss of Salvation[/b]

The same Catholic.com link mentioned above also provides the following text:
[quote]Regarding the issue of whether Christians have an "absolute" assurance of salvation, regardless of their actions, consider this warning Paul gave: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; [i]otherwise you too will be cut off[/i]" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).[/quote]
So, was Saint Paul being inspired by the Holy Spirit when he wrote these words? What can he mean by "being cut off"? Do particular verses from 1 John contradict this, or is it that a particular interpretation is contradictory? I would suggest that St. Paul--along with Our Lord himself--regards baptism as the beginning of a believer's journey to salvation (eternal life) in heaven, not the end.

From the perspective of a Catholic, the whole idea of "loss of Salvation" is faulty to begin with, because it assumes that salvation has already been obtained by a living individual. Without citing the many New Testament passages that refute this, I would simply say that neither the Church nor the Holy Bible teach that we are finally saved before our [url="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08550a.htm"]Particular Judgment (link)[/url].

From the OSAS perspective, Catholic teaching can appear to espouse an idea of the "loss of Salvation." In fact, what an individual does lose when they mortally sin is sanctifying grace--not salvation. So, in a sense, Catholics believe in OSAS; but, this means that we are saved "once" at the end of our earthly lives.

As an answer to the "Are Catholics Saved?" question, Catholic.com (at the bottom of the "Assurance of Salvation" link) explains how Catholics were saved (past), are being saved (present), and will be saved (future).

To try and create a bridge of understanding between Catholics and non-Catholics, I would say the following about my own faith journey. Christ's sacrafice on Calvary was the event that "saved" me. In no way diminishing that fact, through the waters of Baptism, I was given sanctifying grace and began my relationship with Our Lord. Through other sacraments (especially Confession and Holy Eucharist), God granted me forgiveness of my past sins and gave me the strength to build my relationship with Him. I trust that if I remain faithful to Him, I will return to Him at the end of my earthly journey, and live in His Love into eternity.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
I wonder what the merit in such a practice would be if his salvation did not depend on sins commited after "accepting Jesus."
[/quote]

thats a very good point. If there is such a thing as OSAS, then why would Jesus give the Apostles the Power to forgive sins? What would be the purpose since His death freed us from any sin by simply believing in Him?

Doesnt that break the whole OSAS concept? "I said my 'Lord..personal savior..' prayer now..lets go do dumb stuff!" OSAS says we can do that and still inherit heaven.

However, thats not what Scriptures says. Many quotes from scripture have proven that above my thread here. But the main one that OSAS people love to over look is the 'Not everyone who says 'Lord, Lord' will inherit heaven'

Who were those people crying 'Lord, Lord' but didnt inherit heaven? Those that didnt truely follow God's call. Those that still sinned after accepting Him. Those that break away from the foundation Christ layed for us. Those that believe in OSAS.

Those that are in sin will loose the inheritance of Heaven. Only us confessing our sins can we be reconciled to God once again.


It was sin by Adam that put us to Death, Christ brought us back, but sin is still in the World. So this sin, breaks us away from God again. Only Confession can bring us back. See how awesome God is? He doesnt give up but rather gives us ways to come back because He knows we will fall.

[Briguy]

Good posts but you can't answer a question by stating theological beliefs. You need to address the scriptures I have used that say directly that a person can KNOW they have eternal life. If they know it is eternal then it is forever or you have just changed what eternal is. It is the same word used to describe God, the ETERNAL GOD. I want to respond to your posts but want you to offer an explanation directly to the verses in question.

Thanks much, In Christ,
Brian

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='Briguy' date='May 26 2005, 08:42 AM']Good posts but you can't answer a question by stating theological beliefs. You need to address the scriptures I have used that say directly that a person can KNOW they have eternal life. If they know it is eternal then it is forever or you have just changed what eternal is. It is the same word used to describe God, the ETERNAL GOD. I want to respond to your posts but want you to offer an explanation directly to the verses in question.
[/quote]
Our Lord repeatedly warns the disciples that individuals who think they "know" that they are saved will be lost in eternity. We've provided scriptural proof (not merely "theological beliefs"), both in the Gospels and in the Pauline Epistles.

There's an isolated verse (1 John 5:13) that "appears" to contradict the constant teaching of the rest of the Holy Scriptures. So, either the Holy Bible has a contradiction, or you are misinterpreting the passage to have a meaning that was not intended by the Holy Spirit.

The link previously mentioned already addresses 1 John 5:13 (From [url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Assurance_of_Salvation.asp"]Catholic.com--link[/url]):
[quote]Related to the issue of whether one can lose one’s salvation is the question of whether one can know with complete certainty that one is in a state of salvation. Even if one could not lose one’s salvation, one still might not be sure whether one ever had salvation. Similarly, even if one could be sure that one is [i]now [/i]in a state of salvation, one might be able to fall from grace in the future. The "knowability" of salvation is a different question than the "loseability" of salvation.

From the Radio Bible Class listeners can obtain a booklet called [i]Can Anyone Really Know for Sure?[/i] The anonymous author says the "Lord Jesus wanted his followers to be so sure of their salvation that they would rejoice more in the expectation of heaven than in victories on earth. ‘These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God (1 John 5:13).’"

Places where Scripture speaks of our ability to know that we are abiding in grace are important and must be taken seriously. But they do not promise that we will be protected from self-deception on this matter. Even the author of [i]Can Anyone Really Know for Sure?[/i] admits that there is a false assurance: "The New Testament teaches us that genuine assurance is possible and desirable, but it also warns us that we can be deceived through a false assurance. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)." [/quote]
Even the cited "Radio Bible Class" booklet admits to a possibility for false assurance, and quotes the same verses that we Catholics quote. If you would like to believe them when they state the same thing, that would be just fine, too.

Though Catholics should not live in despair regarding their salvation, neither should we fall into the sin of presumption. This is a case of avoiding the extremes, and living in the virtues of hope and humility.