OSAS vs. Confession

[mulls]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='May 18 2005, 06:25 PM']

This is why the sacrament of reconciliation (confession) is so crucial, it helps us to know that we are truly repentant. [/quote]
i think you have to re-state this sentence, because right now i want to take it to mean that we don't really have to be repentant going into the act of confession, but once we are there, we'll be convinced...."oh, yeah.....I really am sorry. Wow. I wasn't going to be sorry but now that I am here I know that I am truly repentant."

and i know that's not what you mean.

but hey at least i'm man enough to admit it when i misinterpret someone

[Brother Adam]

Sure. Okay so let's say I go over to my friends house and get drunk and smoke pot. The next morning I get out of bed and am like "Wow, I sinned against God, and I need to confess that sin and get right with God again". Now, personal confession is a wonderful practice that we all need to be in the habit of, but with personal practice alone I can go sit down for a minute and say "God, I am really, really, really, really sorry and I promise never to do it again" get up and be on with our lives without any true conversion, and maybe no true repentance taking place, especially if for the next 10 nights in a row we go do the same thing (a discussion on habits and addictions aside).

Now, let's look again at the words and deeds the sacrament of confession draws us to and compare it to what personal prayer almost always ends up being for most non-Catholics and even many Catholics.

The examination of conscience: We sit down and according to a formula exam our life. The ten commandments is a classic guide to confession. For instance under the first commandment: Did I love money more then God? Was I greedy? Did I spend adequate time in prayer? Have I tried to follow Christ and mold myself to his life? Have I done my best to follow God's will? The examination allows us to better see out shortfalls and how we have grown.

Then we enter the confessional and the priest greets us. Not as someone to slap us on the hand, but as a Christian brother to warmly welcome and embrace us as God's child. We say "Bless me Father for I have sinned it has been ______ since my last confession". We then offer up to God all of our shortcomings, most especially any mortal sins (those sins which are of a very grave nature, which we did intentionally, with full knowledge and full consent). The priest listens closely and then offers any pastoral advice linked to problems we may be having. He gives us a penance, often time to spend in personal prayer for others or for the whole church, sometimes works of mercy. The priest asks us to make an act of contrition and offers the words of absolution - that God has indeed forgiven us of our sins and to go and sin no more.

The point here being that if we are not truly repentant - then the priest will not grant absolution. If I say "Yeah I murdered him in cold blood and I'll do it again too if I had the chance" does not show true repentance. Confessing our sins to a priest helps us to realize our own sorrow for sin, and the grace of confession as a sacrament helps dispose us to live a holier life. Compared to the man who just prays for a few minutes saying he is sorry, such a realization may not be made, and the grace of the sacrament is lacking. The growth experienced through the sacrament is not experienced the same as in personal prayer and confession.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

very nice explanation Adam.

I am curious mulls what your views are on what Jesus said to the Apostles at Pentecost when he breathed on them (done only one other time in Scriptures) and gave them the Holy Spirit and said "Whos sins you forgive, they are forgiven.."

And also in scriptures where St. Paul says (my own words) he is the ear of reconciliation..ok, im at work so cant look it up word for word, hopefully Bro Adam will bail me out hehe.

mulls, thank you for questioning and being respectable. I really enjoy reading your dialog.

God Bless

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Bump for mulls

[mulls]

CF

thanks for the kind words

the moment you speak on was not Pentecost, since the Lord had not yet ascended, but that's besides the point...

[quote]21Jesus said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you." 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of anyone, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld." [/quote]


Here Jesus is sending out the disciples with the message of the gospel. People can only receive forgiveness through the message of the gospel....repentance and faith in Christ. Since the gospel is the standard of forgiveness, it seems that Jesus is giving them the ability to declare sins forgiven, on account of people's belief, or declare them unforgiven, on account of people's unbelief. I don't think this implies the ability to do the actually forgiving, but rather the declaration of fact: someone's sins either are or are not forgiven, based on faith in Christ.

You'll have to find me that Paul reference if you want me to comment on that too. Peace.

Edited May 20, 2005 by mulls

[Brother Adam]

Now mulls, you know you wouldn't let us get away with such an "well, it doesn't really say that because I think it says this" explanation.

More appropriately this passage indicates that they will specifically act in persona christi (in the person of Christ) after he has ascended into heaven. As Christ once said "You're sins are forgiven, Pick up your mat, go and sin no more", now the Apostles are given the power to do so in the name of Christ. The radical idea of actually forgiving sins is reserved to God alone, so when Jesus said "Your sins are forgiven" the Jews immediately thought him to be a blasphemer. We know that because he was God he could forgive sins, and the Apostles in his place, and those who succeeded the Apostles through the laying on of hands also have this ability. Jesus actually meant what he said.

[mulls]

Bro,

I'm not seeing anything in your explanation that makes in any more or any less acceptable than mine.

how is persona christi indicated here?

how is apostolic succession specifically indicated here, as opposed to a command for all believers to follow (i.e. preaching the gospel)?

[Scofizzle]

From Catholics Uniter for faith:

Through the Sacrament of Baptism, a person is cleansed of original sin and receives the "grace of a new birth in God the Father, through His Son, in the Holy Spirit" (St. Irenaeus as cited in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, no. 683). Through this regeneration in water and the Spirit, a person becomes a Christian, born again as a son or daughter of God (Jn. 3:3-6; Rom. 8:14-17).

After becoming a child of God, one may freely damage or break off his relationship with God through sin. Whereas venial sin damages our relationship with God, mortal sin actually severs the relationship through the loss of God’s supernatural life of grace within us (cf.1 Jn. 5:16-17; Catechism of the Catholic Church, nos. 1854-64).

When a person chooses to kill that life of grace through mortal sin, God, who is full of mercy, seeks to reconcile His prodigal son or daughter to Himself (cf. Lk. 15:11-32). God alone can forgive sins (Catechism, no. 1441), yet he empowered the Apostles and their successors (bishops and priests) to carry out His ministry of reconciliation (cf. 2 Cor. 5:18-21). St. John writes:

[Jesus said,] "As the Father has sent Me [with all authority, Mt. 28:18], even so I send you." And with this, He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained" (Jn. 20:21-23; cf. Lk. 10:16; Mt. 16:19, 28:18-20).

The Church’s power to bind and loose (Mt.16:19, 18:18) provides further scriptural evidence for this sacrament. As the Church has taught for 2,000 years, the priest exercises his ministry in persona Christi (that is, in the person of Christ). This means that in confessing one’s sins to a priest, one truly confesses one’s sins to Christ Himself and receives pardon from God. Because the priest acts in persona Christi, he is the spiritual head or "father" of the community (cf. 1 Cor. 4:14-15). Thus, Confession reconciles us with Christ and His Body, the Church, whom we have wounded by sin.

Sin is never a private matter, since it always disrupts the order of creation and the whole community (cf. 1 Cor. 5:1-6). Through Christ, the priest forgives the sinner in the name of the whole community, the Body of Christ. "Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God" (Catechism, no.1445). In his New Testament Epistle, St. James exhorts us, "[C]onfess your sins to one another and pray for one another, so that you may be healed" (Jas. 5:16).

Though venial sins are remitted through the reception of Holy Communion (Catechism, no. 1394), the Church recommends that all the faithful, even those who are not conscious of having committed a mortal sin, make frequent Confession (Catechism, no. 1458). The Sacrament of Confession is one of healing. It makes us aware of our sinfulness and our dependence on God; therefore it is vital to receive the sacrament frequently in order to advance in holiness. One of the precepts of the Church is that all the faithful are bound by obligation to confess "grave" sins at least once a year.1 It is also very important to note that those who are conscious of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion without having first received absolution in Confession, "unless [there is] a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possible way of going to Confession" (Catechism, no. 1457).

Again, sin is not a solitary matter, nor does any Christian have a "God-and-me-alone" relationship with the Father (1 Cor. 12:12-26). Confessing our sins within the Body of Christ allows us to reconcile with God and strengthen the Church, providing a witness so that all may turn and repent (2 Pet. 3:9).



Sorry I had to post something from somewhere else I am not very Articulate....

[mulls]

I understand.


but what is the condition for forgiveness? is it not belief in the gospel, faith in Christ?

[Brother Adam]

No. It is genuine metanioa.

[mulls]

can you please define that word for us common folk, oh learned one?

[Brother Adam]

I typically don't take well to sarcasm, but since you said please, it is a Greek word that simply refers to repentance and conversion, a very common word in the New Testament.

[mulls]

so genuine metanoia....repentance and conversion....in light of what? is it not the gospel?

[Brother Adam]

We seem to have gotten quite sidetracted, but here is the thing. Just because one believes in the gospel, does not automatically mean they will repent and obey (turn from their sin). Satan knows better than we do that Jesus is the Messiah and all that he did for humanity, there is a certian assent that Jesus is the Christ, but there is no genuine faith. If you were to say that with faith there must be an obedience Christ in the fullness to all of what Christ calls us to I would agree. Cafeteria Christianism is no true Christian faith.

But let me ask this on a side note while I continue to think about this topic. Is a genuine Christian capable of apostasy?

[mulls]

agreed, Jesus did say "repent and believe in the Gospel," for a reason.




is a genuine Christian capable of apostasy? geez....i'm afraid we'll just start arguing over what makes a genuine Christian i suppose.


but no, i don't believe a genuine Christian can fall into apostasy. i believe one who leaves the faith never actually had the faith, though they have full knowledge of the truth and have been touched and drawn by the Holy Spirit, as in Hebrews 6.

1 Timothy and 2 Thessalonians says that apostasy is real, and people will leave.

but of false Christian teachers/believers, 1 John 2:19 says "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

so i would hold that those who fall into apostasy were "not of us" to begin with, and were deceived themselves into thinking they were really believers.