Extreme traditionalists still not happy

[MichaelFilo]

I agree with the whole thing, except possibly the "super structure" of churches. However, my opinions aren't too far off. Ecumenicism is possibly one of the most far-fetched unCatholic things I've yet to see.

By the way, Ratzinger did oppose including "Mary, Midiatrix of all Graces" in the V2 documents, alongside opposing having a whole document about Mary as to have a more ecumenicistic council. He failed with the first and succeeded with the second.

A good portion of the document was about ecclesiology as well. It's true, the Church of Christ is ONLY the Catholic Church. There is NO salvation outside of the Church, and even a schismatic's church contains no salvation within it's teachings, since it is lacks the fullness of Truth and the gudiance of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 17 2005, 07:26 PM'] I agree with the whole thing, except possibly the "super structure" of churches. However, my opinions aren't too far off. Ecumenicism is possibly one of the most far-fetched unCatholic things I've yet to see.

By the way, Ratzinger did oppose including "Mary, Midiatrix of all Graces" in the V2 documents, alongside opposing having a whole document about Mary as to have a more ecumenicistic council. He failed with the first and succeeded with the second.

A good portion of the document was about ecclesiology as well. It's true, the Church of Christ is ONLY the Catholic Church. There is NO salvation outside of the Church, and even a schismatic's church contains no salvation within it's teachings, since it is lacks the fullness of Truth and the gudiance of the Holy Spirit.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
The Orthodox Church contains all that is needed for salvation - the Pope said so.

[MichaelFilo]

Which one? Please tell me, which Pope could deny the constant tradition "ex ecclesiam nulla salus"? It sure wasn't JPII.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 17 2005, 07:31 PM'] Which one? Please tell me, which Pope could deny the constant tradition "ex ecclesiam nulla salus"? It sure wasn't JPII.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
He said the Orthodox church and the Catholic church were like two lungs, each containing all that is required for salvation but that they work better together or something. I'll have to go find the quote I suppose.

But Orthodoxy has perfectly valid sacraments because it follows valid apostolic succession. And the dogmatic differences are pretty minimal other than the papacy.

[MichaelFilo]

Ecumenicism... sigh...

I assure you, however, they are not salvic. For one to be saved, you must be saved through the Catholic Church. Valid sacraments and even apostolic succession is not salvic. St. Jerome said it best when he said that if you do not hold to everything the Church teaches, you are not part of the Church.

Dogma is very important. Only one is correct, anything wrong has been succeeded by the gates of Hell.

And I repeat, knowing this is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church is the body of Christ. Outside of Christ, there is no salvation. All salvation is through the Catholic Church, the body of Christ. To say there is salvation outside of the Church would be to deny Paul's teachings in his letter to the Corinithians saying the Church is the body of Christ, and to say that the Church is not just within the Catholic Church, you would have to deny 2000 years of Catholic Truth.

And I shall repeat it once more, lest someone forget. Outside of the Catholic Church there is NO salvation.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 17 2005, 07:50 PM'] Ecumenicism... sigh...

I assure you, however, they are not salvic. For one to be saved, you must be saved through the Catholic Church. Valid sacraments and even apostolic succession is not salvic. St. Jerome said it best when he said that if you do not hold to everything the Church teaches, you are not part of the Church.

Dogma is very important. Only one is correct, anything wrong has been succeeded by the gates of Hell.

And I repeat, knowing this is the constant teaching of the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church is the body of Christ. Outside of Christ, there is no salvation. All salvation is through the Catholic Church, the body of Christ. To say there is salvation outside of the Church would be to deny Paul's teachings in his letter to the Corinithians saying the Church is the body of Christ, and to say that the Church is not just within the Catholic Church, you would have to deny 2000 years of Catholic Truth.

And I shall repeat it once more, lest someone forget. Outside of the Catholic Church there is NO salvation.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
But the Orthodox are part of the Church. They aren't excommunicated. And the Orthodox haven't excommunicated Catholics either. That was all rescinded.

[MichaelFilo]

You must be kidding me.

The Orthodox Church has been excommunicated since the beggining of the second millinium. No pope, yes excommunication.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 17 2005, 07:53 PM'] You must be kidding me.

The Orthodox Church has been excommunicated since the beggining of the second millinium. No pope, yes excommunication.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
No. The Orthodox Church was excommunicated by a Papal Legate in 1054. The Pope had died, making that legate completely invalid. Nonetheless, because of communications difficulties, it went through, and the Orthodox countered by excommunicating the pope and the west.

In the 70's JPII and the Patriarch of Constantinople rescinded the excommunications. Besides which, evidence shows that people in the 11th century didn't take them too seriously and certainly never expected a miliennia of bickering over it.

The Orthodox Church has salvation.

[MichaelFilo]

It is outside of the Catholic Church. It lacks salvation. Unless they accept the Pope, they are not Catholic, and by virtue of that fact, is not salvic.

I fail to see why you would make such a blatent lie about salvation being outside of the Catholic Church. Clearly, that is the only statement you are making, since the very fact that they are NOT Catholic, and do not consider themselves to be. Besides, rejecting the authority of the Pope (which the Orthodox due as described in the council of Florence was it?) is a heresy.

One thing about the Orhtodox, they aren't all one. Some accept the role of the Pope, but some don't even see the need for one. Whatever the case, all Orthodox churches reject PEter, and so are NOT and CANNOT be Catholic until they accept Peter. They deny Christ with their lies, they lie like wolves about the special role Christ gave to Peter. They are not Catholic. Their doctrine is diabolic, and membership in their church is not, and cannot be salvic.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 17 2005, 08:02 PM'] It is outside of the Catholic Church. It lacks salvation. Unless they accept the Pope, they are not Catholic, and by virtue of that fact, is not salvic.

I fail to see why you would make such a blatent lie about salvation being outside of the Catholic Church. Clearly, that is the only statement you are making, since the very fact that they are NOT Catholic, and do not consider themselves to be. Besides, rejecting the authority of the Pope (which the Orthodox due as described in the council of Florence was it?) is a heresy.

One thing about the Orhtodox, they aren't all one. Some accept the role of the Pope, but some don't even see the need for one. Whatever the case, all Orthodox churches reject PEter, and so are NOT and CANNOT be Catholic until they accept Peter. They deny Christ with their lies, they lie like wolves about the special role Christ gave to Peter. They are not Catholic. Their doctrine is diabolic, and membership in their church is not, and cannot be salvic.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
You're wrong:

1) The excommunications in 1054 centered around the "filioque" not papal primacy. And it was considered a minor theological issue even then.

2) Orthodoxy recognize the pope as primus inter pares, as opposed to pontifex maximus. They accept the primacy of Peter, but they interpret that primacy differently.

3) The excommunications were rescinded.

So there are still issues to the reunification process, but Orthodoxy is NOT a heresy.

That's also why with a dispensation the Orthodox can receive communion in a Catholic parish.

Edited May 18, 2005 by KizlarAgha

[MichaelFilo]

Thats a bit of a different position you are taking. AT first, they were part o fthe Church, now they need to be reunited.

That is the thing, however. They aren't united. By the way, to be Catholic (and consequently part of the Church established by Christ) you have to hold everything that is part of the Church to be true. The role of the pope is a non-negotiable. Obedience to the pope is also a non-negotiable. So, to make it clear again : They are not Catholic, they do not hold everything the Church teaches, they do not obey the Pope, they are not union with the Supreme Pontiff, Pontifix Maximus, Successor of Peter, the servant of servants, the Vicar of Christ, or whatever you'd like to call the Pope. If they were, they wouldn't be "Orthodox", they'd be Catholic.

It is still true, unless you are Catholic, your church contains to salvic properties. Only the Catholic Church, in full unity with Christ, with teachings fully protected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the body of Jesus, under the pastorship of the Holy Father, is salvic. Any other Church that cannot claim this (and the Orthodox cannot) is an abomination to the Lord, since it rejects Him.

God bless,
Mikey

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='MichaelFilo' date='May 17 2005, 08:22 PM'] Thats a bit of a different position you are taking. AT first, they were part o fthe Church, now they need to be reunited.

That is the thing, however. They aren't united. By the way, to be Catholic (and consequently part of the Church established by Christ) you have to hold everything that is part of the Church to be true. The role of the pope is a non-negotiable. Obedience to the pope is also a non-negotiable. So, to make it clear again : They are not Catholic, they do not hold everything the Church teaches, they do not obey the Pope, they are not union with the Supreme Pontiff, Pontifix Maximus, Successor of Peter, the servant of servants, the Vicar of Christ, or whatever you'd like to call the Pope. If they were, they wouldn't be "Orthodox", they'd be Catholic.

It is still true, unless you are Catholic, your church contains to salvic properties. Only the Catholic Church, in full unity with Christ, with teachings fully protected under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, the body of Jesus, under the pastorship of the Holy Father, is salvic. Any other Church that cannot claim this (and the Orthodox cannot) is an abomination to the Lord, since it rejects Him.

God bless,
Mikey [/quote]
It's a more complicated issue than that. Now that the excommunications have been rescinded, they should technically be the same Church. However, neither side has worked out how exactly to go about this. It isn't about what Orthodoxy believes - it is about overcoming 1000 years of separation.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 17 2005, 09:34 PM'] He said the Orthodox church and the Catholic church were like two lungs, each containing all that is required for salvation but that they work better together or something. I'll have to go find the quote I suppose.

But Orthodoxy has perfectly valid sacraments because it follows valid apostolic succession. And the dogmatic differences are pretty minimal other than the papacy. [/quote]
He was talking about the Eastern Catholics, not the Orthodox.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 17 2005, 08:36 PM'] He was talking about the Eastern Catholics, not the Orthodox. [/quote]
I'm pretty sure he was talking about Orthodoxy...otherwise the lung metaphor is kind of worthless because Eastern Catholics ARE Catholic. That'd be more like a body metaphor or something. Lungs imply two distinct things.

[cmotherofpirl]

Lungs imply an already connected body.