Liberation Theology

[Crispy]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 15 2005, 10:41 AM'] communism is not good in theory, it is absolutely evil IN THEORY. [/quote]
forgive my not being on the internet enough to respond quickly, so let me step back and clarify my point. what i meant to justify was the core idea that justice for all people should be present, not an upper class beating on the lower. what i also mean is that the idea that peple just get along by themselves without a government and everything is fine and dandy is also great. in this way, "communism" is not bad at all. HOWEVER, this will never ever happen because it is an idealistic view and does nto include God in its plan. i am not endorseing communism in practice, which always will turn into dictatorship. all i meant to say was that the idea of a perfect unified society is good, but it aint gonna happen by way of Marx.

[Aloysius]

the theory behind it is that if no one has private property but they all share we can all be happy. if it could be done perfectly in practice I would still be against it, it is evil in theory as I said. it necessarily denies the inherent right of the human person to private property.

it is a common falacy to say communism is good on paper but not in practice. that fallacy stems from forgetting our Catholic roots. the theory is incorrect beause it denies private property which is affirmed as an absolute right of man by the Church. it is bad on paper. its idealism would not be ideal according to the Church.

[Crusader_4]

Okay lets talk about Liberation Theology...as mentioned before in and of itself Libeartion Theology is not wrong if implemented in the respects of Orthodox Catholicsm. For example, the Solidarity movement in Poland was Liberation theology. These people in the spirit of Christ were rising up against their opressors justly. The Theolgy gave them hope that the conditions they were living in were not those that Christ would want them to live in that the Worker has dignity and is not a product. This is very clear in the Encyclical Rerum Novarium by Leo XIII. It is from this spirit that true CAtholic Liberation Theology works. Another example was Apartheid in South Africa. Theolgoy can be used to make a case that keeping people in opressed situation is wrong and thus as mentioned before it is not communism but rather a common good that Christ seeks....it does not discourage morality or the teachings of the Church but creates conditions of justice that reflect Christ and his Church's teachings.

[Crusader_4]

Okay lets talk about Liberation Theology...as mentioned before in and of itself Libeartion Theology is not wrong if implemented in the respects of Orthodox Catholicsm. For example, the Solidarity movement in Poland was Liberation theology. These people in the spirit of Christ were rising up against their opressors justly. The Theolgy gave them hope that the conditions they were living in were not those that Christ would want them to live in that the Worker has dignity and is not a product. This is very clear in the Encyclical Rerum Novarium by Leo XIII. It is from this spirit that true CAtholic Liberation Theology works. Another example was Apartheid in South Africa. Theolgoy can be used to make a case that keeping people in opressed situation is wrong and thus as mentioned before it is not communism but rather a common good that Christ seeks....it does not discourage morality or the teachings of the Church but creates conditions of justice that reflect Christ and his Church's teachings.

[Crusader_4]

Okay lets talk about Liberation Theology...as mentioned before in and of itself Libeartion Theology is not wrong if implemented in the respects of Orthodox Catholicsm. For example, the Solidarity movement in Poland was Liberation theology. These people in the spirit of Christ were rising up against their opressors justly. The Theolgy gave them hope that the conditions they were living in were not those that Christ would want them to live in that the Worker has dignity and is not a product. This is very clear in the Encyclical Rerum Novarium by Leo XIII. It is from this spirit that true CAtholic Liberation Theology works. Another example was Apartheid in South Africa. Theolgoy can be used to make a case that keeping people in opressed situation is wrong and thus as mentioned before it is not communism but rather a common good that Christ seeks....it does not discourage morality or the teachings of the Church but creates conditions of justice that reflect Christ and his Church's teachings.

[Myles Domini]

[quote]Okay lets talk about Liberation Theology...as mentioned before in and of itself Libeartion Theology is not wrong if implemented in the respects of Orthodox Catholicsm. For example, the Solidarity movement in Poland was Liberation theology. These people in the spirit of Christ were rising up against their opressors justly. The Theolgy gave them hope that the conditions they were living in were not those that Christ would want them to live in that the Worker has dignity and is not a product. This is very clear in the Encyclical Rerum Novarium by Leo XIII. It is from this spirit that true CAtholic Liberation Theology works. Another example was Apartheid in South Africa. Theolgoy can be used to make a case that keeping people in opressed situation is wrong and thus as mentioned before it is not communism but rather a common good that Christ seeks....it does not discourage morality or the teachings of the Church but creates conditions of justice that reflect Christ and his Church's teachings. [/quote]

But of course this is not what His Holiness the late great John Paul II was condemning. The use of theology to justify the ousting of tyranny is not a new phenomena. As I mentioned before it is enshrined within Aquinas. John Paul the Great was not condmening those who legitimate seek to overturn tyrannical regimes. What has come to be known as Liberation Theology (rather than a theology of liberation) is a product of a historical critical reconstruction of Jesus as influenced by a hermenutic arising out of a Marxist theory of history about the eternal class struggle. This hermenutic constructs a 'historical Jesus' hypothesis that makes Our Blessed Lord's primary mission little more than insurgency against the Romans and his crucifixion a mere symbol of solidarity with the oppressed rather than a perfect offering made for the sealing of the New Covenant. This is something unprecedented in Catholic theology, if you can even call what has come to be known as Liberation Theology as 'Catholic'. If you would've insisted such a notion in the face of Pope Leo XIII you would've been slapped with an "Anathema".

As our late great Holy Father said in his encyclical 'Solicitudo Rei Socialis' there are structures of sin that keep the poor in abjection and affliction. He was not ignorant to such things and not silent about them either. He openly supported Solidarity but he refused to reduce the entire gospel to the story of a class struggle, which is precisely what the phenomena of Liberation Theology tries to do. The hypothetical reconstruction of the 'historical Jesus' made by the Biblical Critics who advocate Liberation Theology depict Jesus practically only as an insurgent and not as redeemer and savior of the world. To these liberation theologians just like to feminist theological exegetes etc.etc. Jesus' mission was to [i]them[/i] and accordingly natural life is given undue prominence over supernatural life.

[Socrates]

Liberation Theology is nothing but Marxist Communism dressed up in "religious" trappings. In reality, it is neither about "liberation," nor is it theology.

JPII rightly condemned it.
Marxism is the god that failed. Let it lie buried!

[Crusader_4]

Myles,

I am not disagreering with you at all. However i am merely pointing out taht true 'liberation theology' is not marxist or communist at all rather. It is using Christs Message of hope to change structures of sin. I would never suggest Leo XIII was in favour of communism or marxist philosophys Rerum Novarum was quite capitalist in its nature (altho it did have many socialist concepts). However True 'Catholic Liberation Theology' i would argue is fine and in accord with the Magesterium. For example the Catholic movement against the Communist Powers in Poland or in the Phillipines or with the end of apartheid are all examples of True Catholic Liberation Theology. It is not merely a battle btwn classes or anything of the sort rather it is the Children of God looking out for eachother and seeking the common good. That is not opposed to the Gospel in any way nor is it the total salvific message of the gospel.

[Aloysius]

that is the most disgusting summarization of Rerum Novarum I've ever heard!

"capitalist with some socialist ideas"???

Rerum Novarum is 100% distributist. Distributism has absolutely no relation to socialism and is in fact an entire third way separate from Capitalism and Socialism. I would argue that it comes out futher on the right of it, with rugged individualism and more private property rights than even capitalism allows.

to say Rerum Novarum is capitalist is oversimplification and misleading. to say it has socialist concepts is absolutely absurd.

[Crusader_4]

Aloysius,

ur right it is distributist....however i think the word socialist is given a bad name. There are some very socialist ideas expressed by Leo XIII what about the idea of workers to form unions? that is originally many will argue socialist in nature. I am not saying he promoted socialism or capitalism however he devolps a very Cahtolic approach in his encylcial to economics and labour as well as the dignity of human work. As well just because something has levels of socialism in it does not make it bad at all.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Crusader_4' date='May 16 2005, 09:46 PM'] Aloysius,

ur right it is distributist....however i think the word socialist is given a bad name. There are some very socialist ideas expressed by Leo XIII what about the idea of workers to form unions? that is originally many will argue socialist in nature. I am not saying he promoted socialism or capitalism however he devolps a very Cahtolic approach in his encylcial to economics and labour as well as the dignity of human work. As well just because something has levels of socialism in it does not make it bad at all. [/quote]
Read my signature, if you think the Church condones Socialism. (That's why I chose it, because I got tired of repeating it so often on here!)

[Aloysius]

the Church gave socailism a bad name... because it recognized it as evil.

the ultimate end of socialism is necessarily a denial of absolute unmitigated private property

the nature of a good Catholic union is far from a socialist idea. Leo XIII speaks of those that are the rightful heirs to the ancient guilds.

anyway, if you want to completely redefine things then yeah, you could justify "socialist ideas" or you could justify "liberation theology". anyway, these terms in their defined context right now are both evil things.

anyway, levels of socialism are also wrong because they operate on the same ideal and principal that denies unmiitgated private property rights of individuals.

[Crusader_4]

Aloysius its not clear cut and dry as that. certain socialist ideas are good i.e. welfare, unemployment insurance, health benefits, unions, these in no way at all undermine the Church's teaching on property. AGain i must repeat im talking of a socialism that looks to the common good. It is not one that wishes to abolish or go against any church teaching. Anyone that knows me i follow Catholic teachign very faitfully. However there are certain socialist principles that we can use in our economic system for the greater good.

Edited May 17, 2005 by Crusader_4

[Aloysius]

only if we compromise with the modern world.

the Catholic idea of unions is not a socialist idea at all, but the heir to the ancient guilds

welfare is somewhat allowable on shaky grounds, but ultimately it robs from the rich to give the poor and as such is contrary to moral principals. what Catholics do when they support welfare (I am not judging this right or wrong) is compromise with modernity. Welfare is only necessary insomuch as capitalism creates injustice. But like all socialist solutions it moves in the wrong direction.

socialist healthcare too is contrary to the idea of ownership of one's own property and destiny. Again, the idea is in response to the injustices of capitalism. Distributised healthcare, a theory I am currently working out in my head so I cannot sufficiently propose or defend as of yet, could allow for people to use their own wealth towards their own care, because that is their concern and not the government's concern.

Basically, these socialist ideas can only be described favorably as having better immediate results than their capitalist counterparts. But they go in the wrong direction by attempting to solve that problem by making the government rob from the rich (any attempt to mitigate or limit the right to private property) to give to the poor... ultimately infringing upon not only the freedom of the rich to own private property, but the freedom of the poor to own independent private property.

I believe stuff like social secuirity should be abolished, and that welfare should be way overhauled if not also abolished. But I ONLY support abolishing such programs WITH the distributist equivilants-- proximity ownership laws that promote small business ownership; the simplification of taxes and the abolition of all property taxes, the simplification of the real estate industry in general, the formation of fair insaurance guilds, and the outlawing of those things which separate labor and material from money including usury and big insaurance

So okay, I will concede to you that so long as western society remains in its crumbled form without the aid of any Christendom and in the clutches of the debate between capitalism and socialism, we can admit certain ideas such as welfare as ways of temporarily aiding the suffering caused by capitalism. but dabbling in any level of socialism is dangerous and I fear if we don't bite the bullet andelliminate all those socialist systems now we will spiral into a completely irreversable economic state.

[Aloysius]

btw I don't doubt you follow Catholic Teachings faithfully and I'm sorry if I've come off here at all condescending or overly confrontational... I just really detest all forms and alllevels of socialism and have crazy chesterbellocian ideals that I don't think should be comprimised