God = Allah

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Catechism of the Catholic Church' date=' no 841']The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[/quote]
Catholics are free to hold any number of opinions on the nature of the Islamic religion. I would simply point out that paragraph 841 of the Catechism is not as clear-cut as some believe. It all depends upon what is meant by the phrase, ". . . these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Clearly there are two major components to this statement, and the first one, i.e., that Muslims "profess to hold the faith of Abraham," does not mean that they actually have the faith of Abraham, but only that they claim to possess Abraham's faith. Clearly, Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham, since they deny various elements of both the Old and New Testament revelation of God. As far as the second component of the phrase is concerned, it is true that Muslims adore with us, "one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." But this is simply an affirmation of the monotheistic nature of Islam, which is a natural good, but which is not based upon a valid supernatural revelation. Moreover, it must be borne in mind that this kind of statement issued by the Church's Magisterium is not the proper subject matter for a definitive pronouncement, because it can hardly be claimed as a datum of divine revelation that Muslims worship the true God; and so a Catholic is free to hold a view of Islam that sees it as a form of religious deception.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 14 2005, 12:29 PM'] Catholics are free to hold any number of opinions on the nature of the Islamic religion. I would simply point out that paragraph 841 of the Catechism is not as clear-cut as some believe. It all depends upon what is meant by the phrase, ". . . these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." Clearly there are two major components to this statement, and the first one, i.e., that Muslims "profess to hold the faith of Abraham," does not mean that they actually have the faith of Abraham, but only that they claim to possess Abraham's faith. Clearly, Muslims do not profess the faith of Abraham, since they deny various elements of both the Old and New Testament revelation of God. As far as the second component of the phrase is concerned, it is true that Muslims adore with us, "one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." But this is simply an affirmation of the monotheistic nature of Islam, which is a natural good, but which is not based upon a valid supernatural revelation. Moreover, it must be borne in mind that this kind of statement issued by the Church's Magisterium is not the proper subject matter for a definitive pronouncement, because it can hardly be claimed as a datum of divine revelation that Muslims worship the true God; and so a Catholic is free to hold a view of Islam that sees it as a form of religious deception. [/quote]
Well not exactly. The Muslims believe in the second coming of Christ at the last judgement.

[Extra ecclesiam nulla salus]

The Catholic God is a trinity Father Son and Holy Ghost.

The muslim God is just like our Father.

So therefore the Gods are different.

remeber if you deny the son then you deny the Father.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Extra ecclesiam nulla salus' date='May 14 2005, 12:40 PM'] The Catholic God is a trinity Father Son and Holy Ghost.

The muslim God is just like our Father.

So therefore the Gods are different.

remeber if you deny the son then you deny the Father. [/quote]
I don't think they deny the son.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 14 2005, 10:42 AM'] I don't think they deny the son. [/quote]
As Mohammad wrote in the Qu'ran: "You shall not say, [i]Trinity[/i]. You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; [i]He is much too glorious to have a son[/i]. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master." [Qu'ran, Sura 4:171]

From this it is clear that Muslims deny that God has a Son.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='May 14 2005, 01:06 PM'] As Mohammad wrote in the Qu'ran: "You shall not say, [i]Trinity[/i]. You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; [i]He is much too glorious to have a son[/i]. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master." [Qu'ran, Sura 4:171]

From this it is clear that Muslims deny that God has a Son. [/quote]
What I meant was I don't think they deny Jesus in his entirety, hence I'm not certain they can be said to completely deny the son of God. I think it's an odd mixture which comes about from their refusal to believe in a trinity doctrine.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 14 2005, 03:10 PM']What I meant was I don't think they deny Jesus in his entirety, hence I'm not certain they can be said to completely deny the son of God.  I think it's an odd mixture which comes about from their refusal to believe in a trinity doctrine.[/quote]
The problem only appears when you use the term "Son of God." The Quran explicitly denies this idea repeatedly. This isn't a small detail for our Christian Faith: Our Lord was crucified for claiming to be "the Son of God."

We Christians have recently bent over backwards in our zeal to find commonality between non-Christian religions. The problem is when we cannot use basic terms to describe our differences.

So, what does it mean to "deny" Jesus? Could we say that an atheist who sees Jesus as a "nice guy" is not denying Jesus? Where does "denial" begin?

The Quran is pretty clear on its distinctions against Christianity: "Allah" doesn't have a Son. "Isa" was created by Allah, in the womb of Marium. "Isa" did not die on the Cross, but only "appeared" to have died. He was actually taken up by Allah.

So, after a quick browsing through the Quran:

Is "Isa" and the Christian God/man "Jesus" the same person?
Is "Allah" and the Christian God the same deity?
Is the "Injeel" (The book given to Isa) and the New Testament the same text?

The answers--according to the Quran--are all: no.

I'm not writing this to suggest that we should imitate those Muslims who exhibit intolerance and de-humanize non-Muslims. I just think that pretending that differences don't exist between our religion and Islam is not constructive; it just leads to more religious indifference and relativism.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 14 2005, 02:54 PM'] The problem only appears when you use the term "Son of God."  The Quran explicitly denies this idea repeatedly.  This isn't a small detail for our Christian Faith: Our Lord was crucified for claiming to be "the Son of God."

We Christians have recently bent over backwards in our zeal to find commonality between non-Christian religions.  The problem is when we cannot use basic terms to describe our differences. 

So, what does it mean to "deny" Jesus?  Could we say that an atheist who sees Jesus as a "nice guy" is not denying Jesus?  Where does "denial" begin?

The Quran is pretty clear on its distinctions against Christianity: "Allah" doesn't have a Son.  "Isa" was created by Allah, in the womb of Marium.  "Isa" did not die on the Cross, but only "appeared" to have died.  He was actually taken up by Allah.

So, after a quick browsing through the Quran:

Is "Isa" and the Christian God/man "Jesus" the same person?
Is "Allah" and the Christian God the same deity?
Is the "Injeel" (The book given to Isa) and the New Testament the same text?

The answers--according to the Quran--are all: no.

I'm not writing this to suggest that we should imitate those Muslims who exhibit intolerance and de-humanize non-Muslims.  I just think that pretending that differences don't exist between our religion and Islam is not constructive; it just leads to more religious indifference and relativism. [/quote]
I'd disagree with point 2. I think Islam and Christianity clearly have the same God, but disagree on how to conceptualize Him.

Edited May 14, 2005 by KizlarAgha

[Aloysius]

the ONLY relationship between the God Muslims worship and our God is the fact that the Muslims are SEEKING the same God we are seeking, the God of Abraham and of Ancient Israel. they have yet to find him. for a great orthodox Vatican II understanding of other religions, I would reccomend strongly Our Holy Father's book "Truth and Tolerance: Christian Belief and World Religions". Their God is not "the same God" as our God.. but they seek the same God we seek. there enlies the relationship, that we seek the same God. We believe to have found that God in the Most Holy Trinity; a God who is a personal Father, Abba, who we can rely upon... A God who is a personal Brother to us, a God who has poured forth His personal Spirit upon the Church and is guiding it into all Truth so that we His creation may come to know Him more and more perfectly. They emphasize God's highness above us, his might, and the fact that we must submit to him... it is not a personal familial relationship as the Christian Faith has. they deny the very nature we believe He has, a Trinitarian nature.

Muslims seek the same God we seek. They have not found Him, though He knows whom they seek and will look kindly upon their good intention of trying to find Him.

to say that the God of Islam is the same God as ours is to necessarily admit that Mohammed was visited by the angel gabriel. For only through Divine intervention could a religion be formed that has the same God. No, they have an indirect relationship, they saw the Jews and the Christians and said, this YHWH must be God... and then seperate from the real YHWH's revelation they wrote about Him, and they got much of it wrong.

the other road,: saying that the God of Islam is just the misconceptuallized God of Chistianity, is to travel down a dangerous road of religious relativism. When God is "misconceptualized" to the point of forming a religion contrary to God's own religion, denying His Son and the Trinitarian Unity of God, setting rules contrary to God's rules, saying God represents some things that He does not and saying He does not represent some things He does... I am sorry but this is tantamount to CREATING YOUR OWN GOD, and thus you no longer have the same God as Christianity does. You seek after the same God, which is a nobel cause, but you have instead found a false one.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Aloysius' date='May 14 2005, 03:30 PM'] the ONLY relationship between the God Muslims worship and our God is the fact that the Muslims are SEEKING the same God we are seeking, the God of Abraham and of Ancient Israel. they have yet to find him. for a great orthodox Vatican II understanding of other religions, I would reccomend strongly Our Holy Father's book "Truth and Tolerance: Christian Belief and World Religions". Their God is not "the same God" as our God.. but they seek the same God we seek. there enlies the relationship, that we seek the same God. We believe to have found that God in the Most Holy Trinity; a God who is a personal Father, Abba, who we can rely upon... A God who is a personal Brother to us, a God who has poured forth His personal Spirit upon the Church and is guiding it into all Truth so that we His creation may come to know Him more and more perfectly. They emphasize God's highness above us, his might, and the fact that we must submit to him... it is not a personal familial relationship as the Christian Faith has. they deny the very nature we believe He has, a Trinitarian nature.

Muslims seek the same God we seek. They have not found Him, though He knows whom they seek and will look kindly upon their good intention of trying to find Him.

to say that the God of Islam is the same God as ours is to necessarily admit that Mohammed was visited by the angel gabriel. For only through Divine intervention could a religion be formed that has the same God. No, they have an indirect relationship, they saw the Jews and the Christians and said, this YHWH must be God... and then seperate from the real YHWH's revelation they wrote about Him, and they got much of it wrong. [/quote]
I'm not sure Jibril didn't visit Muhammad.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 14 2005, 04:35 PM'] I'm not sure Jibril didn't visit Muhammad. [/quote]
Jibril may have visited Muhammed; but the Angel Gabriel certainly did not.

[musturde]

Sorry, but I refuse to say Jewish people worship the same God if muslims don't. They say they worship the God of Abraham and just because they do not believe in the trinity, it does not mean that they do not worship God. How can you say he's a different God when they claim they worship him. Pope Urban wrote that when there was much tension between Muslims and Catholics. Christians and Jews are respected as people of the Bible by Muslims. To respond to Aloysius, Jewish people seek our God too and haven't found it through Christ. I believe all of these faiths worship the same God, some less perfectly than others. Find a recent document saying Muslims dont worship our God.


[quote]to say that the God of Islam is the same God as ours is to necessarily admit that Mohammed was visited by the angel gabriel. For only through Divine intervention could a religion be formed that has the same God. No, they have an indirect relationship, they saw the Jews and the Christians and said, this YHWH must be God... and then seperate from the real YHWH's revelation they wrote about Him, and they got much of it wrong.[/quote]

No, not true. That has nothing to do with anything. Muhhamads motives/lifestyle does not affect the God they worship.

[musturde]

[quote name='Mateo el Feo' date='May 14 2005, 03:42 PM'] Jibril may have visited Muhammed; but the Angel Gabriel certainly did not. [/quote]
You'd make no sense to a Christian middle eastern (such as me haha) reading that comment. I'll reply to ur other one soon. I gtg