God = Allah

[SirMyztiq]

I'm having a debate on another forum over this issue. Most of them say that they are the same God, but I don't believe they are. Mostly because of the deep rooted differenced between each religion's interpretation of who God is.

What do you all think...and if you can get really smart and provide lots of links so I can mooch of them

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='May 14 2005, 01:13 AM'] I'm having a debate on another forum over this issue. Most of them say that they are the same God, but I don't believe they are. Mostly because of the deep rooted differenced between each religion's interpretation of who God is.

What do you all think...and if you can get really smart and provide lots of links so I can mooch of them [/quote]
They are the same God. However, Islam believes that the trinity is inherently polytheistic. Christianity believes that by denying the divinity of Christ, Islam is missing out on the fullness of God. So they're the same, but there is a definite difference in the understandings of who God is.

[Cam42]

[quote name='SirMyztiq' date='May 14 2005, 01:13 AM'] I'm having a debate on another forum over this issue. Most of them say that they are the same God, but I don't believe they are. Mostly because of the deep rooted differenced between each religion's interpretation of who God is.

What do you all think...and if you can get really smart and provide lots of links so I can mooch of them [/quote]
[quote]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC 841)[/quote]

The Church is clear in her teaching and this is what we as Catholics are to assent our wills to. End of story.....

Cam

[guardsman]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 14 2005, 06:14 AM']

The Church is clear in her teaching and this is what we as Catholics are to assent our wills to.  End of story.....

Cam[/quote]
Muslims believe Jesus was a major prophet, but not our Saviour. They also believe Jesus did not die on the cross. Like the Church says, they believe in the God of Abraham. But they deny the Divinity of Christ. The Koran denies the Gospel. I would say Satan had some involvement. JPII opened debate with them, but we are still to bring them the full truth. That's the whole idea of interfaith dialogue, to eventually reveal Jesus to everyone, even Hindus. But the Muslims know about Jesus, and still deny Him. Not good.

[yiannii]

It amazes me that Muslims believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary; Jesus Conception of the Holy Spirit; that Jesus worked miracles but still place Mohammed above Jesus (or Joseph as they would put it) in the line of profits.

Another thing, I remember reading somewhere that Muslims have a mistaken understanding of the Trinity. I think it the Trinity, according to Moslem tradition has something to do with God, Jesus and Mary. Any comments?

[Aloysius]

insomuch as they call out to Him as the God of Abraham they are acknowledging the creator, they are seeking the same God through "Allah"

but they see through much distorted vision, and though they seek after the same God in acknolwedging the creator, "Allah" is not the same as YHWH. It is the fact that they acknowledge YHWH, the fact that they seek out YHWH, that gives them some connection to the real God. but demonic forces distort their view on many points about Him to the point where the God they call upon has an inherently different nature than the God we call upon.

[Priscilla]

They are not the same God.

Muslims have three asreas of blasphemy;

1) They deny Jesus is God's Son. ("Allah" cannot have a "son"). Our God, YHWH, has a Son.

2) They deny the Lord Jesus Christ died.

3) They deny the Fatherhood of God.


However we have to remember that God has promised to bless the Arab peoples: Ishmael and Esau (from whom the Arab peoples are descended) were blessed by God and still have blessings to come.

I have heard of Muslims breaking down in tears when they have heard the parable of the Prodigal Son because a Muslim father would not run out to meet a wayward son (it would be more a case of "You come here boy!") - and when Muslims come to see how YHWH is such a loving Father it melts their hearts and brings them to salvation in the Lord Jesus.

Mohammed was quite evil - he was a rapist and paedophile: he did not lead a holy life.

[musturde]

[quote name='Priscilla' date='May 14 2005, 09:52 AM'] They are not the same God. 

Muslims have three asreas of blasphemy;

1)  They deny Jesus is God's Son.  ("Allah" cannot have a "son").  Our God, YHWH, has a Son.

2)  They deny the Lord Jesus Christ died.

3)  They deny the Fatherhood of God.


However we have to remember that God has promised to bless the Arab peoples: Ishmael and Esau (from whom the Arab peoples are descended) were blessed by God and still have blessings to come.

I have heard of Muslims breaking down in tears when they have heard the parable of the Prodigal Son because a Muslim father would not run out to meet a wayward son (it would be more a case of "You come here boy!") - and when Muslims come to see how YHWH is such a loving Father it melts their hearts and brings them to salvation in the Lord Jesus.

Mohammed was quite evil -  he was a rapist and paedophile:  he did not lead a holy life. [/quote]
Allah = God in Arabic. You can not say that Allah is not God because "allah" literally means "God". Even the Christians in the Middle East call God "allah". The only reason why it's so famous among the muslims is because they believe that Arabic is a sacred language and if it is to be translated into other languages God's name can not be translated because they believe that's the language he revealed himself in. So if you say "Allah" is not the same as "God" you are essentially saying "God" is not the same as "God". Now that doesn't make sense does it? In fact, it'd make even more sense to say that the Christian "allah" is not the same as the Muslim "allah". But the truth is, he is. The Koran teaches a lot of good in it. It traces it's ancestors back to the Jews and the Muslims. If you dissagree with how Muhammad lived, it doesn't really affect how all the other muslims or whether they worship the same God. Muslims follow the same God as Yahweh. They claim they do and they try to so I dont think God would be like "NO, YOUR TRYING TO WORSHIP ME BUT SOMEHOW YOUR WORSHIPPING SOMEONE ELSE!". Seriously, I believe they worship God but not as completely as us. If a dedicated Christian was as dedicated as a dedicated muslim, we'd have a new high of saints in the Church.


Peace and Allah Mahkoon (Christian and Muslim Blessing)
Joe

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='yiannii' date='May 14 2005, 09:51 AM']It amazes me that Muslims believe in the Immaculate Conception of Mary; Jesus Conception of the Holy Spirit;[/quote]
Just a small correction: Muslims do not believe that Mary is unique in being conceived without sin (i.e. the Immaculate Conception). Islam denies the concept of Original Sin completely; in a sense, Islam teaches that everyone is born immaculately.

They believe that "Isa" (i.e. Jesus) was "created" by God in Mary's womb. They don't believe in Jesus' eternal Sonship to the Father.
[quote name='yiannii' date='May 14 2005, 09:51 AM']that Jesus worked miracles but still place Mohammed above Jesus (or Joseph as they would put it) in the line of profits.[/quote]
I'm still a little unsure who is top-dog in the list of Muslim prophets: Mohammed or Isa.
[quote name='yiannii' date='May 14 2005, 09:51 AM']Another thing, I remember reading somewhere that Muslims have a mistaken understanding of the Trinity. I think it the Trinity, according to Moslem tradition has something to do with God, Jesus and Mary. Any comments?[/quote]
Actually, this is an obvious mistake in the "perfect" Quran. The Quran states:
[quote name='Quran 5.116']And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. [/quote]

To answer the topic question, it is clear that the Muslim concept of Allah is not consistent with the One True God, for the reasons already mentioned by others.
[quote name='Guardsman']Like the Church says, they believe in the God of Abraham. [/quote]
This is not exactly what the Church says, if you are referring to the Catechism 841 or Lumen Gentium 16. These documents say that Muslims "[b]profess [/b]to hold the faith of Abraham." (Emphasis is mine)

Regarding the Muslim usage of the words "Allah" and "God," Muslims (in my personal contacts) refuse to use anything but Arabic to name Allah. They don't use the word "God," because they want to distinguish their god from the Christian God.

I'd love to see some conciliatory language that emphasizes the commonality of Christianity and Islam from a widely accepted Muslim perspective; but I don't think one exists. When Christians are permitted to freely worship in Mecca and Medina, I'll be happy to change my opinion.

[musturde]

[quote]This is not exactly what the Church says, if you are referring to the Catechism 841 or Lumen Gentium 16.  These documents say that Muslims "[b]profess [/b]to hold the faith of Abraham." (Emphasis is mine)[/quote]

Yes but they never said they do not worship the same God. They'd have to mention something of that point if it's mentioned in the Catechism and the Church believes that.

[quote]Regarding the Muslim usage of the words "Allah" and "God,"  Muslims (in my personal contacts) refuse to use anything but Arabic to name Allah.  They don't use the word "God," because they want to distinguish their god from the Christian God.[/quote]

Not exactly, in the Middle East, everyone uses Allah. Look at my post above.


[quote]
I'd love to see some conciliatory language that emphasizes the commonality of Christianity and Islam from a widely accepted Muslim perspective; but I don't think one exists.[/quote]

Uhh you mean a book or a text? Well, it counts on who you talk to. There are some open-minded Muslims and closed-minded Muslims. They all respect us as the people of the word.

[quote]  When Christians are permitted to freely worship in Mecca and Medina, I'll be happy to change my opinion.[/quote]

I dont think that's relevant. It'd be nice but it's not much of a difference on whether they believe we worship the same God or not.

[Mateo el Feo]

Mustarde,

I have to disagree with you on a few points. I've still got to catch up with your last post!

First, Arabic (including use of the term "Allah") was forced on the Dhimmi. I would argue (though I've got no direct proof) that Muslims would want non-Muslims to use the term "Allah" and Arabic in general to encourage the conversion of Islam. Along with taxes (jizyah) on non-Muslims and other preferences given to Muslims, these were the methods that slowly "squeezed" other religions out of Muslim lands.

[quote name='Mustarde']Muslims follow the same God as Yahweh. They claim they do and they try to so I dont think God would be like "NO, YOUR TRYING TO WORSHIP ME BUT SOMEHOW YOUR WORSHIPPING SOMEONE ELSE!". [/quote]

I would also disagree with this, citing the Gospel of Matthew:

[quote name='Matthew 7:21-23']"Not every one who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.  On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'  And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you evildoers.'[/quote]
and
[quote name='James 2:19']You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder.[/quote]
Individuals (Christian and non-Christian) can claim to follow the One True God. But God has revealed His Son to the world. Islam rejects this revelation, and substitutes another gospel for the True Gospel.

Islam claims that an angel from heaven revealed the Quran. The Quran teaches contrary to the Holy Bible. Reading from St. Paul's letter to the Galatians:

[quote name='Galatians 1:6-9']I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel--not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.  But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed.  As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.[/quote]

[quote name='Musturde']Seriously, I believe they worship God but not as completely as us.[/quote]
I believe they worship a monotheistic god; and that that their "Allah" is not completely the same as the Christian God (LG: "they (i.e. Muslims) do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet."). I believe that the Quran has errors about Christianity and Judaism.

So, there you go...

Edited May 14, 2005 by Mateo el Feo

[cmotherofpirl]

Since there is only one God, even though they have major errors in their belief system, they are still worshipping God.
Just like the Mormons, Unitarians and JWs etc.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='musturde' date='May 14 2005, 12:22 PM'] Yes but they never said they do not worship the same God. They'd have to mention something of that point if it's mentioned in the Catechism and the Church believes that.[/quote]
Nostrae Aetate is explicit in how the Muslim "Allah" is different from the Christian God. If they are "different," then we aren't worshipping the same God, despite the similarities.

[quote name='musturde' date='May 14 2005, 12:22 PM']Not exactly, in the Middle East, everyone uses Allah. Look at my post above. [/quote]
See my post after your post.

[quote name='musturde' date='May 14 2005, 12:22 PM']Uhh you mean a book or a text? Well, it counts on who you talk to. There are some open-minded Muslims and closed-minded Muslims. They all respect us as the people of the word.[/quote]
Islam doesn't have a real central authority, so I was referring to some kind of statement from some respected Ulema.

Unfortunately, some Muslims read the Quran:
[quote name='Quran 2.135']And they say: Be Jews or Christians, you will be on the right course. Say: Nay! (we follow) the religion of Ibrahim, the Hanif, and he was not one of the polytheists. [/quote]
Translation: The Quran teaches that Jews and Christians are not following "the religion of Ibrahim."
[quote name='Quran 5.51']O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. [/quote]
Translation: Christians=bad friends.

Personally, I'd rather have the Muslims read a few verses later:
[quote name='Quran 5.82']Certainly you will find the most violent of people in enmity for those who believe (to be) the Jews and those who are polytheists, and you will certainly find the nearest in friendship to those who believe (to be) those who say: We are Christians; this is because there are priests and monks among them and because they do not behave proudly.[/quote]
Translation: Christians=good friends.

I agree with you: it depends on who you talk to. Some Muslims are more tolerant of non-Muslims; especially those who are themselves minorities. I'd like to see the same tolerance in Muslim-majority countries.

[quote name='musturde' date='May 14 2005, 12:22 PM']I dont think that's relevant. It'd be nice but it's not much of a difference on whether they believe we worship the same God or not. [/quote]
It's relevant because it shows that Muslims--at least those in Saudi Arabia--do not believe that Christians worship the same God. Then again, Druze and even Shiites aren't "worshipping" the same God, according to those Muslims.

[quote name='CMom']Since there is only one God, even though they have major errors in their belief system, they are still worshipping God.
Just like the Mormons, Unitarians and JWs etc.[/quote]
So, I was a monotheist who believed that Donald Duck was the incarnation of the one Deity, am I worshipping the same God?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Cam42' date='May 14 2005, 06:14 AM']

The Church is clear in her teaching and this is what we as Catholics are to assent our wills to. End of story.....

Cam [/quote]
Cam You are making an over simplification here... lets look at the CCC actual words here. The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who[color=red] acknowledge the Creator[/color], in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; [color=red]these profess [/color]to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day." (CCC 841)


God is morethatn the Creator so that is not really relevant.
What they Claim to profess is not what they profess, to say otherwise is not in the teaching of the Church unless you are saying that Abraham WAS a Muslim, Further this is in direct contradiction to previous teachings of the Church. Let me repeat Direct Contradiction. As the CCC is not Infallable and this is a point of contradiction with previous Church Teaching, ithink it is far to say that this is an area where discussion is not only valid but warrented.

]According to Urban II speaking as the Bishop of Rome and in a teacing role the Musilms worship Demons.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='May 14 2005, 11:44 AM'] Since there is only one God, even though they have major errors in their belief system, they are still worshipping God.
Just like the Mormons, Unitarians and JWs etc. [/quote]
The Mormons are Pagans and idolitors tey DO NOT WORSHIP THE ONE GOD.