hyperdulia again Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I think it was ill advised, the Qu'ran kissing. But, who are we to judge the actions of the Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Christ---I'm not a St Paul, a Saint Catherine of Siena, a St Francis, or a St Gertrude the Great and I don't think anyone else here is. The man who was chosen by Christ to feed His sheep, should be judged by Christ and only by Christ (just as we all should be judged by Christ and only by Christ). It has been a black and bloody century and the last decade or so would have been even more akin to Hell on Earth, but for the Papacy of John Paul II. If we love the Pope and think he has committed some publically scandalous act our response should not be to call the Vicar of Christ blasphemous, but to instead fall to our knees and pray for the Pope and the Bride. I think we should all say three "Hail Marys" and an "Our Father" for His Holiness and for those who will find error in any and everything he does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 dUSt, the "pope-hater" came from jasJis' post. But now I am confused: was it jasJis speaking, or the one he quoted? I understand everything you said. I am sorry you are dissapointed with me, because I have an increasingly high opinion of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Nathan, I apologize for not thanking you right away for posting those links and reaching out. I did look at them, and was glad they went into the subject at length. Thank you again. To bring up one thing, Dave Armstrong said at one point to his "Objector" re: the Koran incident, that he (Dave) does not hold the pre-Vatican II line of not praying with those of other religions. Or something like that. I will not do this. I will not go into a Catholic or other church and pray with non-Catholics. I won't go to the Billy Grahm crusade the Ordinary of my diocese has endorsed. So, if these things are part of the Council, or are extensions of them, so be it. The Church didn't used to do this; the mere suggestion of it was unthinkable on the grounds of violating the 1st Commandment. I think it is as simple as that. I could be wrong. It is possible. I do pray about these things. To be hit w/ bricks if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donna Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 Cmom's quoting from the catechism standards I hope will be used. Phatmass has been gracious in asking me personally "what do you mean?" and I think listening before passing sentence. The term schismatic is bandied about too easily in my opinion these days. I say it again: I don't think the posts (plural) of Mark's are hateful to anyone. But I don't expect anyone to agree with me on that. Come, Holy Spirit! I will follow Hyper's preseciptions on praying for the pope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 dUSt, the "pope-hater" came from jasJis' post. But now I am confused: was it jasJis speaking, or the one he quoted? The quote was from Mark Shea's letter to Rick which was an 'article' on Catholic Exchange. Mr. Shea wasn't calling anyone of particualr trait 'Pope Hater', it was used as a collective address at those who hate this Pope and are putting their spin to it to further their goals, wheter Protestant or some fundamentalist Catholics. He wasn't calling all Protestants or fundamentalist Catholics 'Pope Haters'. (And neither was I.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted July 16, 2003 Author Share Posted July 16, 2003 First, I'll say this... that I don't believe either you or Mark are schismatics, just a bit conservative. And believe me, if I thought you were schismatics I wouldn't hesitate to say so, because I am not a big fan of schismatic traditionalism. I would say it's possibly my number one pet peeve. But I don't think y'all are guilty of it. I think you're just a bit more critical of the Pope than some of us, which may or may not be a fault. If it is, then congratulations, you have faults like the rest of us. I certainly don't judge you on any faults you may or may not have, especially when I have so many of my own that are far worse. Now, what I will say is that I think there's a difference between personally thinking what the Pope did may have been wrong, and publicly speaking out against it. I think if you think kissing the Koran is wrong, or the gatherings at Assisi, then you should think so quietly while praying for the Pope. I don't think publicly criticizing him is a good idea, and I say this after having criticized him many times myself. I would leave the criticism of the Pope to those who are a little bit more theologically competent (not to say that you're theologically incompetent, only to say that there are others who are more knowledgeable than you or I), such as the Bishops or the world's theologians. I can assure you that there are some people in the Curia (such as Cardinal Ratzinger) who would no doubt take the Pope aside privately, and respectfully tell him if he thought he had done something scandalous. You'll note since the kissing of the Koran the first time, it hasn't been done again. My point here is this: It's okay to think personally that the Pope may have done something wrong, but not to leave the Church over it as some schismatics have done (though I don't think you or Mark would ever do that). But I don't think it's okay to publicly criticize him, because even that public criticism can bring scandal. It can make others think it's okay to criticize the Pope on other controversial topics, and it can make non-Catholics think it's okay to not be totally faithful to the Pope. My best advice, if you really think the Pope has done something wrong, is to pray to the Holy Spirit and ask him to lead the Pope and you (in the event that you're the one who's wrong, which is possible), along with the entire Church, into all Truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Huether Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 LOL. Sorry to jump in, I just started reading this... "QUOTE (Winchester @ Jul 15 2003, 04:17 PM) Huh? When did JPII kiss a koran? I have to say I'd like to know why, since that book calls our Church a liar, among other things. http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ394.HTM" If you look closely, I don't think he's kissing it. I think he's smelling it. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I fail to see why one cannot criticize the Pontiff, especially if one has every intention of following his direction regardless of whether or not they agree with him. Are we not supposed to be comfortable enough here to discuss such things tastefully and in context? Normally I might agree with you Friday, but I don't agree with not speaking one's mind. It's one thing to criticize, and another entirely to schism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 One can criticize the pope. There are good methods and bad methods for doing this. The point I take from Speechless' argument is that it is just as scandolous to publicly call the pope blasphemous as it is to kiss the koran. In my opinion, it is more scandolous. Can't one see the scandal that could come as a result of calling the pope blasphemous? Mark is guilty of the same offense as he accuses the pope. In my opinion, it's the same methods in which Martin Luther resorted to. I will pray that we may all stay unified under the authority of our Holy Father. God bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I do agree it is scandalous to call the pope blasphemous. Friday's "advice" must have just hit me the wrong way. Sorry if I seemed out-of-sorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 I do agree it is scandalous to call the pope blasphemous. Friday's "advice" must have just hit me the wrong way. I don't know how it is that a Ninja get's hit the wrong way. In fact, I don't know how a ninja get's hit at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted July 16, 2003 Share Posted July 16, 2003 We would all do well to remember that the Holy Father also kissed our own blood-stained soil on his first trip to the USA. A kiss can mean a lot of things. The Holy Father hasn't preached to the Faithful from the Koran. He was not acting infallibly, but merely hospitably, and perhaps diplomatically, and certainly graciously. Perhaps he had in mind all of the Christian people who live in tyrannical Muslim-run countries. Should he act in a less than diplomatic manner, thousands of innocent Catholics could suffer worse than they do now... (Remember, we aren't the Church who thumps peeps over the head with our Bible and tells them that they're going to hell.) The prophet Isaiah says that you attract more flies with honey than vinegar. ( I posted that same quote elsewhere on PM today!) Here, too, it could apply...I think JPII deserves the benefit of the doubt! Viva el Papa! Pax Christi. <>< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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