Churches sold to compensate victims

[Aloysius]

the Bishop governed improperly by not immediately defrocking and/or excommunicating those who committed these crimes, but the Bishop's governance of his diocese is accountable to the Church. The state has no authority to punish the Bishop for how he governed his church even if it was not done correctly.

[Mogmog]

I have no problem with it if no civil law was broken by an individual. Do you propose that civil law in general is not applicable to bishops? Criminal law?

[Aloysius]

civil law is not applicable to the Church, it is the state that ought to be bound by the Church's law and not the other way around.

[Mogmog]

Well I suppose this isn't the place to flesh this out in debate form, and I really don't have the motivation to do so at the moment anyway. In any case, we agree that justice was not done in this case.

[journeyman]

Civil law is not applicable to the Church?

think about the consequences of that . . .

building codes don't apply to Church construction?
traffic laws don't apply to Church
(ordained only? employees? what about the nuns?)
criminal law doesn't apply to the Church
inheritance law doesn't apply to the Church
laws governing ownership of real property don't apply to the Church
tax laws don't apply to the Church
(just the tax law applicable to the citizens, or all the tax laws?)
(shall we tax the church, or just deny a tax deduction to its members?)


and think about the flip side, when the Church has a grievance

the Church can't use the court system to enforce its claims
(against, for example, the priests who behaved improperly)
(against, for example, the rogue lawyer who defrauded an estate rather than paying over the bequests to the heirs (one of whom might have been the Church))
(against, for example, the contractor who broke his contract and didn't finish building the new sanctuary)


What is the Church?
(the building? the priest? the parish congregation?)

The Church would find it as difficult to live in a society in which it, as a member of the society, is not subject to and entitled to the benefits of the civil law as we would find it to live in a society which had no civil law at all

[missionarybelle]

I'm so sad!

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='journeyman' date='May 13 2005, 09:26 PM'] Civil law is not applicable to the Church?

think about the consequences of that . . .

building codes don't apply to Church construction?
traffic laws don't apply to Church
    (ordained only? employees? what about the nuns?)
criminal law doesn't apply to the Church
inheritance law doesn't apply to the Church
laws governing ownership of real property don't apply to the Church
tax laws don't apply to the Church
    (just the tax law applicable to the citizens, or all the tax laws?)
    (shall we tax the church, or just deny a tax deduction to its members?)


and think about the flip side, when the Church has a grievance

the Church can't use the court system to enforce its claims
    (against, for example, the priests who behaved improperly)
    (against, for example, the rogue lawyer who defrauded an estate rather than paying over the bequests to the heirs (one of whom might have been the Church))
    (against, for example, the contractor who broke his contract and didn't finish building the new sanctuary)


What is the Church?
    (the building?  the priest?  the parish congregation?)

The Church would find it as difficult to live in a society in which it, as a member of the society, is not subject to and entitled to the benefits of the civil law as we would find it to live in a society which had no civil law at all [/quote]
Property claims aren't just the jurisdiction of civil law. The Church should have a right to own territory, and that territory should be sovereign. Simple as that.

Edited May 14, 2005 by KizlarAgha

[Krush2k2]

why is he still drawing pension

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='journeyman' date='May 13 2005, 09:26 PM'] Civil law is not applicable to the Church?

think about the consequences of that . . .

building codes don't apply to Church construction?
traffic laws don't apply to Church
(ordained only? employees? what about the nuns?)
criminal law doesn't apply to the Church
inheritance law doesn't apply to the Church
laws governing ownership of real property don't apply to the Church
tax laws don't apply to the Church
(just the tax law applicable to the citizens, or all the tax laws?)
(shall we tax the church, or just deny a tax deduction to its members?)


and think about the flip side, when the Church has a grievance

the Church can't use the court system to enforce its claims
(against, for example, the priests who behaved improperly)
(against, for example, the rogue lawyer who defrauded an estate rather than paying over the bequests to the heirs (one of whom might have been the Church))
(against, for example, the contractor who broke his contract and didn't finish building the new sanctuary)


What is the Church?
(the building? the priest? the parish congregation?)

The Church would find it as difficult to live in a society in which it, as a member of the society, is not subject to and entitled to the benefits of the civil law as we would find it to live in a society which had no civil law at all [/quote]
[quote]Civil law is not applicable to the Church?[/quote] Yup that is the ancient tradition of the Church and dispute of it is a defined heresy, read Pius IX syllubus of errors.

[quote]building codes don't apply to Church construction?[/quote] Absolutly I was jhust havingthis descussion at work this week, our City has been delaying the building of a church building for months for permits and things, that is simply carp, the State has no Authority over the Church NONE, let me repeat NONE. By the Way in the US any claim to it is abrogatted by the States own interpretation of the speration of Church and State.


t[quote]raffic laws don't apply to Church
    (ordained only? employees? what about the nuns?)
criminal law doesn't apply to the Church
inheritance law doesn't apply to the Church
laws governing ownership of real property don't apply to the Church
tax laws don't apply to the Church[/quote]
Let me make this clear, NO Civil Laws apply to the CHurch, nietherr ordained persons nor religous ( Monks and Nuns) anyone who is a member of the Church and is accused of violating a law should be tried in ecclesiastical court, if found guilty of a serious crime they should be defrocked and handed over to the Civil Authorities but the State has no Authority over the Church.


As for property rights and grievences the Fact that the State has no Authority OVER the Church has nothing to do with it's Authority to enforce wills being probated( which it won't do anyway) and so on. just because the State has no Authority over the Church does not mean the Church cannot use the organs of the State, in Fact the State is obliged to render aid to the Church.


[quote]What is the Church?
    (the building?  the priest?  the parish congregation?)[/quote] The Church in this since is all ordained men and all religious, as well as all Church properties.

[quote]The Church would find it as difficult to live in a society in which it, as a member of the society, is not subject to and entitled to the benefits of the civil law as we would find it to live in a society which had no civil law at all[/quote]


Its funny the Church seemed to do pretty well for the 1100 years that this was so all over western Europe and continued to do well in those contries where this remained into the modern age( Spain& Portugal come to mind)

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='KizlarAgha' date='May 13 2005, 11:34 PM'] Property claims aren't just the jurisdiction of civil law. The Church should have a right to own territory, and that territory should be sovereign. Simple as that. [/quote]
Agreed

[Q the Ninja]

I don't agree with what has happened, and I am deeply saddened by it...However, I do not think that the Church can morally do much here.

Wow, and I thought what I said last week...

[Don John of Austria]

[quote name='Q the Ninja' date='May 14 2005, 02:27 AM'] I don't agree with what has happened, and I am deeply saddened by it...However, I do not think that the Church can morally do much here.

Wow, and I thought what I said last week... [/quote]
She can simply say NO we are not under your authority, we will not pay.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='May 14 2005, 11:36 AM'] She can simply say NO we are not under your authority, we will not pay. [/quote]
Seriously. I cannot believe we're even having this discussion. The idea of the Church being beholden to secular governments makes me sick.

[Paladin D]

We aren't the Holy Roman Empire anymore, [b]Journeyman[/b] is right.

Though it is unfortunate that such a thing has to be done, we have no [b]*legal*[/b] authority to override the decision of the state or country. If they start legalizing the burning of Churches or crucifixion of Christians, than that's another story.

Don John, the Church cannot simply say [b]"She can simply say NO we are not under your authority, we will not pay."[/b], for the secular courts will not recognize this argument. To them, that claim is no different than some Muslims claiming they have a right to control the world.

[KizlarAgha]

[quote name='Paladin D' date='May 14 2005, 02:07 PM'] We aren't the Holy Roman Empire anymore, [b]Journeyman[/b] is right.

Though it is unfortunate that such a thing has to be done, we have no [b]*legal*[/b] authority to override the decision of the state or country. If they start legalizing the burning of Churches or crucifixion of Christians, than that's another story.

Don John, the Church cannot simply say [b]"She can simply say NO we are not under your authority, we will not pay."[/b], for the secular courts will not recognize this argument. To them, that claim is no different than some Muslims claiming they have a right to control the world. [/quote]
It doesn't matter whether the secular governments recognize it or not. Let them try to do something about it.

You cannot say that just because the times have changed that the Church should change with them. That's a ridiculous argument. Every Catholic is required to be loyal to the Vatican first and their home nation second. If the Vatican told me to overthrow America, I'd do it.